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Stolperstein

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171–180 of 187 posts

Re: Stolperstein

#171

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

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Re: Stolperstein

#172
post #68

There are many such memorial plaques on the pavements of Vienna. They are almost part of the landscape, easy to walk by without noticing, yet every so often, when one stops rushing and reads a few of these (it was often whole families being deported, not just individuals), it hits again. And it is important that it never stops hitting and reminding us of this horror and of the need of avoiding repeating it.

> the need of avoiding repeating it Which is why I think this is pointless. We didn't learn anything. People are still being prosecuted all throughout the world. I won't give examples because I don't mean to start a flamewar but yeah, humanity sucks.

It’s absolutely not pointless. We learned, but learning is not a destination, it’s a journey that sometimes has backtracks and delays.

The fact that you think it’s pointless shows that you yourself have some learning to do.

Re: Stolperstein

#173
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Liesing, Austria, I walked past a stolperstein this morning, which sits at the entrance to a local Billa (supermarket), which is a new construction on a site where I suppose the victim of Nazi aggression lived before being taken to a concentration camp to perish. Although I see these stones all over Vienna, and find myself in contemplation every single time I see them elsewhere around Europe, it is even more…

I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to…

I don't know why you think it is unambiguosuly right to apologize for past crimes.

My Finnish friend is super into history and he basically remembers the events of history by it's relative position in time to a European war. There were so many horrific wars.

The stories of past highlight the worst parts of human nature, but many people got by in love without murdering the locals next door.

We should turn away from evil and denouce it. The apology for it, suggests a naive belief one is separate from that human nature which drove the crimes.

Maybe with more lead in air from leaded petrol, or more internet radicalization, or an end to our local agriculture, we might be the 1% that turns toward evil. Examining past crimes can lead to more crime, as we have seen with internet radicals lately and copycat people following news media stories.

Studying that sh*t and mulling it over in apology for crimes one never did is dangerous, we should move towards loving the good things done, past and future.

Re: Stolperstein

#174
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to…

I don't know why you think it is unambiguosuly right to apologize for past crimes. My Finnish friend is super into history and he basically remembers the events of history by it's relative position in time to a European war. There were so many horrific wars. The stories of past highlight the worst parts of human nature, but many people got by in love without murdering the locals next door. We should turn away from ev…

I think there's very clearly a point beyond which any reasonable person agrees that what's done is done and it doesn't make sense to make apologies anymore. Like today in 2022 nobody but the most peculiar weirdo in Scotland holds a grudge against people with the surname "Campbell" because of the Glencoe Massacre[0] after more than 300 years (though they do exist!).

But for something like the Mau Mau massacre, for the Iraq War, for the Afghanistan War or for any number of atrocities in British India or anything like that - these were huge events whose effects can still be felt today. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect some sort of official apology from the state. Or failing that - simply allowing a level of acknowledgement in our History curriculum that says "The British Empire was not good, and was in fact quite often bad for a very long period of time" might help. Because right now doing so is walking on very thin ice[1] and there are a lot of people walking around in the UK who think our imperial project was one which colonised and civilised, rather than brutalised it.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe

[1] - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/guidance-on-promoting-bri...

Re: Stolperstein

#175
Having spent most of my adult life in Germany, I’ve seen hundreds of them, and I try to take a moment to think of the people they name.

And then reflect that Germans don’t have some special intrinsic evil that made them capable of doing this 80 years ago - every country is some hard times and a demagogue away from it.

Re: Stolperstein

#176
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My understanding is that the Israelis had to remove some people to make way for their state - doesn't this apply to the Palestinians too, if they want their land back? Or am I missing something, did they leave voluntarily because of dissatisfaction with the government etc? Your understanding isn't exactly in line with the history, at least from my Jewish-Israeli perspective. In general, It's a complicated question,…

Ah, thanks for the explanation. But isn't this more or less what I describe still, other than people leaving on their own rather than being forced out? Like, without going into too tricky political discussions, it seems like being physically present on the land gives you some form of title to it. And if the Palestinians/Arabs hadn't left, it would be much more difficult to run the Israeli state. They would have the r…

> But isn't this more or less what I describe still, other than people leaving on their own rather than being forced out?

There's a pretty big difference between people being forced out of their home, and people rejecting a plan given by the UN, then starting a war instead. It's not exactly the same people, which makes this somewhat complicated, but some portion of the Arab-Israeli population left at the urging of those countries on the promise that they would wage war and give them all the land instead of just part of it.

> Like, without going into too tricky political discussions, it seems like being physically present on the land gives you some form of title to it.

Again, some (most? all?) of the land that the Jews settled in between the late 1800s and modern Israel, was purchased or given legally. That gives you title to it, at least in the modern world.

> And if the Palestinians/Arabs hadn't left, it would be much more difficult to run the Israeli state.

Arabs make up 20% of the citizenship of Israel today. And yes, this is "problematic".

There's a large question about what sovereignity means in this kind of context. Does it make sense to have a "Jewish" state? How can that be democratic? You can't restrict existing citizens, even if they are non-Jewish, but then how do you maintain it as a homeland for Jews? These are tough questions that I don't think anyone can really answer.

> If so, I don't see what it has to do with corruption, because it's just a basic fact of countries - one guy has to win and the other one thus loses, and it's a zero-sum game.

Many things in life are not zero-sum. But yes, if two different ethnic groups want the same piece of land, and feel they are entitled to it, one of them is going to "lose" in that sense.

> What's the way out of this conundrum?

There isn't really a good way out, not without the Palestinians making in their eyes major concessions. (Though note that Israel has attempted to make plans that made major concessions from their pov, and the Palestinians rejected all these offers.)

The only solution I personally think makes any sense is a two-state solution, whereby the Palestinians get their own state on the existing land, plus possibly some part of Jerusalem (though this is a political non-starter today in Israel.)

But I don't really see this happening. Palestinians don't love this deal (for obvious reasons.) Israel, on the other hand, is the stronger party which means it probably benefits from the existing status-quo, so has no reason to rock the boat right now. And for leaders on both sides, it's possibly better to keep the fighting going.

So really, I don't see anyone with any big incentive to change any of the current situation.

Re: Stolperstein

#177
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you think it is unambiguosuly right to apologize for past crimes. My Finnish friend is super into history and he basically remembers the events of history by it's relative position in time to a European war. There were so many horrific wars. The stories of past highlight the worst parts of human nature, but many people got by in love without murdering the locals next door. We should turn away from ev…

I think there's very clearly a point beyond which any reasonable person agrees that what's done is done and it doesn't make sense to make apologies anymore. Like today in 2022 nobody but the most peculiar weirdo in Scotland holds a grudge against people with the surname "Campbell" because of the Glencoe Massacre[0] after more than 300 years (though they do exist!). But for something like the Mau Mau massacre, for the…

The Mau Mau massacre is not 'unambigously right to apologize for'. The moral argument that one must make amends for his/her sin should apply to the perpetrators of the sin, not people who were uninvolved and the government has already compensated the victims of British torture financially.

But the Kenyan view that the Mau Mau were heroic freedom fighters and colonialism was bad, is painfully simplistic. The Mau Mau started the war by murdering innocents, they killed their own people if they did not swear an oath of alliegance and they escalated the brutality every step of the way.

The real Kenyans who wanted nothing to do with either the Brits or the Mau Mau are nearly completely unrecognized and yet the political narrative is dominated by the impacts of war, resources and money.

Your second link doesn't suggest anything to do with the British Empire. The values it's advertising are bog standard secular democratic stuff. The values of the British Empire were more religious, monarchical and imperialistic.

If this is the anti-empire narrative then it is disappointly anemic. Tribes who escalate economic warfare to the level of pure psychopathy and a small british colony that escalates to respond in war-camp, torturous kind, is not a good face value judgement of the largest empire the planet's seen, and all the good that it brought.

Re: Stolperstein

#178

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. The stories on them, told in a brief phrase, are mostly heartbreaking, sometimes uplifting, always relevant. "Executed for making fun of the Führer", "Deported and gassed for hiding Jewish neighbors", "Survived concentration camp but parents, siblings and rel…

We have these around where I live. The thing that struck me most is just the sheer number of them. Of course you get taught in history class the death tolls, but seeing it out in the real world hits differently. More are still getting added every year as well. It's sobering.

Re: Stolperstein

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my two cent counter-argument. Captialism is the biggest ruthless killing machine, whatever form it takes: nazism (Hitler was put to power by German industry/bourgeoisie), fascism (Mussolini advocated for State/Capital unification under "corporatism"), State capitalism (USSR was not very different from a people's perspective, with salaried work and gulags and political police), or ordinary liberalism (French re…

Please clarify what you mean by capitalism. I have a hard time following that part of your statement.

Disclaimer: i'm no political scientist

I would accept several definitions depending on the context. Here's a few definitions that would cover all these variations of capitalism:

- a society in which some people work and some don't

- a society where money/status exists and drives access to resources ; more often than not, the most necessary and least desired jobs are the least compensated

- a society in which production is not based on reflections from a local community about their needs, but dictated by a third-party (a boss, a State..)

A society that's not capitalist would follow the old anarchist tenet "From each according to their capabilities, to each according to their needs". Arguably, it should be possible to have "State communism" or "Stateless capitalism" but neither form has emerged throughout history (even for a brief period) and these formula are inherently oxymorons. Stateless communism (anarchism) is definitely a thing and has emerged many times throughout history although it's more often than not been crushed bloodily (see also Paris Commune, Ukraine Commune / Makhnovtchina, Spanish revolution, etc).

Re: Stolperstein

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the need of avoiding repeating it Which is why I think this is pointless. We didn't learn anything. People are still being prosecuted all throughout the world. I won't give examples because I don't mean to start a flamewar but yeah, humanity sucks.

It’s absolutely not pointless. We learned, but learning is not a destination, it’s a journey that sometimes has backtracks and delays. The fact that you think it’s pointless shows that you yourself have some learning to do.

Referring to modern day regimes commiting genocide as "backtracks" is quite something.

Learning is pointless if you don't put it to use, which is what my point is. It doesn't take decades to learn not to kill people who are different from you.

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