Racism in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Racism in Tech

#31

Post by wpietri » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 1:57 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #20

k33n wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I chose to clearly express my opinion, you chose to be extremely rude and dismissive. Who's really trolling?

My opinion is that a white guy (you: https://twitter.com/#!/mikekeen ) saying that people getting upset about racism are 'backwards' is either mind-boggling insensitive or out and out trolling. Nothing rude about it - that's how I see it. I can accept people saying "luckily, in this day and age, I think it's not so much of a problem" as something up for debate, but to state that those angered by discrimination are "b…

I see you're taking some heat for this comment, but I agree entirely. Trolling seems the more polite interpretation, because otherwise you'd be accusing somebody of levels of ignorance and arrogance that are mind-boggling to me.

Racism does of course exist and is a problem. There's a ton of research on this. Here's a good place to start:

http://www.projectimplicit.net/media.php http://www.projectimplicit.net/articles.php

But one great example is a study where they sent out the same resumes with different names at the top; some sounded black and some sounded white. The "black" resumes got significantly fewer callbacks, and on "black" resumes increases in skill and experience mattered significantly less:

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.htm...

Re: Racism in Tech

#32

Post by xibernetik » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 1:58 PM UTC

kahawe wrote: post #5

This story is shocking and I hate to nit-pick here but > Just to remind all of us that racism is alive and well in the US and in tech. [...] The customer site is a government owned military installation. This doesn't make it any "better", actually much worse, but this is not "in tech". What I find both shocking and curious about racism is that it is a much more widespread problem throughout the world, not only limite…

It started when speciation occurred -- if something looks "different" enough to you, you are not going to be attracted to it or treat it like one of your own. That's been around a lot longer than higher thinking, so in a way, it's been inherent all along.

Logically, we might not care, we might not want to care, but there's now research that's pointing out (the studies have been too small so far for real conclusions to be drawn) there's a strong possibility it's wired into our brain at a subconscious level.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/24/they-all-look-the-same... https://webapps.utsc.utoronto.ca/ose/story.php?id=2135

Before someone accuses me of justifying racism: I don't think racism is justifiable, but I think this research is important. If we understand the physiological causes, we can consciously make an effort to avoid being biased.

Re: Racism in Tech

#33

Post by davidw » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 2:00 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #29

davidw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion is that a white guy (you: https://twitter.com/#!/mikekeen ) saying that people getting upset about racism are 'backwards' is either mind-boggling insensitive or out and out trolling. Nothing rude about it - that's how I see it. I can accept people saying "luckily, in this day and age, I think it's not so much of a problem" as something up for debate, but to state that those angered by discrimination are "b…

So his opinion should be dismissed 'cuz he's white? It's a topic where white people aren't allowed to talk about, except if we wish to talk in politically correct platitudes? I agree with you that racism is still a real problem and that k33n's comment seems somewhat out of touch. However, what you say is tantamount to "shut up because you're white", and that's not cool either. You actually went to the trouble of look…

I didn't say "shut up because you're white". I said that someone who, in the US, is not likely to be the victim of much discrimination due to the color of his skin should have a little bit more respect for those who are, and those, in general, who are angered by discrimination. Saying he doesn't think racism is an issue is one thing, calling people who are victims of it 'backwards' is galling.

Re: Racism in Tech

#34

Post by k33n » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 2:08 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #29

davidw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion is that a white guy (you: https://twitter.com/#!/mikekeen ) saying that people getting upset about racism are 'backwards' is either mind-boggling insensitive or out and out trolling. Nothing rude about it - that's how I see it. I can accept people saying "luckily, in this day and age, I think it's not so much of a problem" as something up for debate, but to state that those angered by discrimination are "b…

So his opinion should be dismissed 'cuz he's white? It's a topic where white people aren't allowed to talk about, except if we wish to talk in politically correct platitudes? I agree with you that racism is still a real problem and that k33n's comment seems somewhat out of touch. However, what you say is tantamount to "shut up because you're white", and that's not cool either. You actually went to the trouble of look…

Hey davidw, why don't you misrepresent what I said some more? I didn't say that the victims of racism were backwards. Anyone who is a victim of an actual crime should be treated with dignity and respect. People who get bent out of shape about a rude military contractor acting like an ignorant ass ARE backwards.

Re: Racism in Tech

#35

Post by wpietri » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 2:08 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #23

Racism exists everywhere. In fact, prejudice of all kinds does. And probably always will. I worked a company where the employees felt it was okay to make racist or sexist jokes with the person in the room, so long as the person didn't appear to mind. It made me terribly uncomfortable, but short of going to management, nothing I said or did mattered. (I didn't make an ass of myself, though. If the person isn't going t…

Maybe they didn't mind. But I've definitely heard friends in various non-dominant groups tell stories about the racist, sexist, or anti-gay bias they've listened to politely because they liked their jobs more than they liked being honest about the fact that they thought their co-workers were irredeemable assholes. No way to tell, really.

I will say, though, that the experience is very different when you're part of the dominant group. As a white male in the US, when people make jokes about some portion of my mongrel ancestry, it really doesn't matter. But when I was living in South America, jokes about Americans had a whole new edge to them. Sometimes they really were funny and welcome. But sometimes they weren't because the person really had something against gringos. That was at times really uncomfortable, and I occasionally wondered what it meant for my physical safety. I still laughed either way, though. Ha! Ha ha!

Re: Racism in Tech

#36

Post by gizmo » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 2:09 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #33

gizmo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So his opinion should be dismissed 'cuz he's white? It's a topic where white people aren't allowed to talk about, except if we wish to talk in politically correct platitudes? I agree with you that racism is still a real problem and that k33n's comment seems somewhat out of touch. However, what you say is tantamount to "shut up because you're white", and that's not cool either. You actually went to the trouble of look…

I didn't say "shut up because you're white". I said that someone who, in the US, is not likely to be the victim of much discrimination due to the color of his skin should have a little bit more respect for those who are, and those, in general, who are angered by discrimination. Saying he doesn't think racism is an issue is one thing, calling people who are victims of it 'backwards' is galling.

It is tantamount to "shut up". That's what I said. You dismissed his point of view because of his skin color. You looked up his race and based your opinion on him based on that. Had he been of black or asian descent you wouldn't have made the argument you made. You even acknowledge this. You wanted to make an argument but you quickly had to look up if his race matched your preconceived notions about his race because otherwise your argument wouldn't have been valid. On the internet.

I don't know how to spell this out further. Are you really this obtuse?

Re: Racism in Tech

#37

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 2:10 PM UTC

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

[deleted]

Re: Racism in Tech

#38

Post by technoslut » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 2:10 PM UTC

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

This is about the article which, if true, is about racism.

If you're alluding that there is no racism, I disagree with you. I will, however, say that there is far less in the tech community than the world at large.

>I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp.

If you have no college education, I do respect your will power. But just because someone is willing to pay you because your work is superior to others does not mean racism does not exist.

I am OK with what NewME is doing. It is giving young black entrepreneurs a chance that was never afforded to them. There isn't enough coders who're black so I would like them start at a younger age than a mature adult.

As an aside, I grew up being of mixed ethnicity (primarily black/white) while going to an all-boy mostly white Catholic school while living in a mostly black neighborhood, growing up poor, and had racist comments thrown at me constantly from both blacks and whites.

Re: Racism in Tech

#39

Post by chernevik » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 2:11 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #28

k33n wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

davidw, If you think your last comment was in the spirit of respectful debate then you should go back and re-read it a few times. If you don't want to respect my opinion, that is not my problem. Racism is irrelevant. Racists are irrelevant. Society doesn't take them seriously. Racists would have zero power over anyone if nobody took their actions or words seriously. Someone doesn't want to give you a job because they…

I do not believe your comment was worthy of respect, frankly. If you'd started with your comment above saying that "racism is irrelevant", perhaps I'd have called it a bit naive, but taken no offense. To make the connection between people incensed by discrimination to those who perpetrate it is very, very offensive. Racism is very much relevant as long as people have power over other people (which is part and parcel…

The "racist" tag has become a contemporary excommunication. That might be good were it always applied accurately. But perhaps the diligence of a Soledad O'Brien, interested more in arresting video than strict fairness to subject, makes the tag something very dangerous.

There was a day when people thought witches necessarily worse than the people who spotted witches. Go look at how that turned out.

But of course you and yours wouldn't be so stupid and unfair.

HELLO DOWN-VOTERS. Why bother framing a response when you can just misuse a forum moderation tool? It's intelligence of a kind . . .

Re: Racism in Tech

#40

Post by wpietri » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 2:15 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #29

davidw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion is that a white guy (you: https://twitter.com/#!/mikekeen ) saying that people getting upset about racism are 'backwards' is either mind-boggling insensitive or out and out trolling. Nothing rude about it - that's how I see it. I can accept people saying "luckily, in this day and age, I think it's not so much of a problem" as something up for debate, but to state that those angered by discrimination are "b…

So his opinion should be dismissed 'cuz he's white? It's a topic where white people aren't allowed to talk about, except if we wish to talk in politically correct platitudes? I agree with you that racism is still a real problem and that k33n's comment seems somewhat out of touch. However, what you say is tantamount to "shut up because you're white", and that's not cool either. You actually went to the trouble of look…

As a white person in the US, I'll tell you true: my opinion on racism is much less well informed than the average non-white person. Because a) I almost never experience it, b) I am less inclined to notice it, and c) non-white people are very unlikely to talk to me about their experiences and thoughts on the topic.

So yes, a person's race is entirely relevant to considering the quality of their opinions on racism. For basically the same reason that I will happily weight a person's opinions on software development based on whether they're an experienced coder or a non-technical manager. Experience matters.