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Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

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Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#541

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

lbrito wrote: post #192
corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

>have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. Wow. I have 10 years of work experience, the last few being "senior". I have a few friends and many recruiters I could reach out to, but absolutely expecting a full fledged 30-round interview like anyone else. I envy you!

Don't feel too bad. One counterpoint to this is that most companies I've worked at will require even highly recommended employees to go through the same interview process as everyone else, primarily for fairness and diversity reasons.

Getting a recommendation may "put you to the front of the line", and may allow you to skip a basic screening call, but honestly I think most well run organizations won't skip the interview process even if it's a well-known "superstar" - they would instead just change some of the interviews to let that superstar demonstrate their in-depth expertise in their niche.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#542

Post by stevenjgarner »

bonzini wrote: post #157
anon291 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

> perhaps pay people to complete the assignments. Assuming this is legal at all according to current employment contracts, it's a huge pain for the new employer's payroll and more stuff to keep track for the employee's income tax.

Why is it a pain? Not a payroll consideration, as they are not an employee (yet). Isn't it just a simple $600 max Form 1099 independent contractor situation? Small administrative burden to find the right senior.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#543

Post by marktangotango »

wizofaus wrote: post #511
marktangotango wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take home test as the first step in an interview process is the ultimate evil in this. I've spent hours then got ghosted. I will never do it again. This is a "run like hell" signal imo.

I've heard that before, and if we felt there was a significant risk we were putting off good devs from applying, I'd reverse that decision. But I like to think we made our tests a fun & interesting enough challenge that applicants were happy to spend the time doing them.

Lol read the responses here, you're kidding yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#544

Post by jollybean »

porcoda wrote: post #279
dancocos wrote: post #37

"Take-home technical assignment (~4h)" I've got 20 plus years of tech, I've been out of college since 1997 and you want to give a 4 hour homework assignment. If get you want to get a feel for someone's ability but this is more easily done by stating a problem during one of the interviews and asking the person "How would you approach this?" Listing for how they anticipate problems and tradeoffs.

Exactly. 25+ years in tech here too. When a company says "we're going to give you homework", that is a giant flashing sign that basically reads "we assume your resume is a lie, your references are lying for you (or we just aren't going to bother calling them), so we're going to test you". Hard pass. Having been on the hiring side of things, I get far more information out of a conversation where I can ask for details…

It's impossible to gather someone's competence from a resume or even in a conversation.

A 4hr assignment is generally a really good way to gather competency.

That said - it's just 'too much' of a hill for senior devs. to bother with and there are probably some ways to do 'regular interviewing' in order to figure that out.

I have hired a ton of Engineers and I've found a lot of senior engineers to be particular, crusty and a bit weird: excelling in some ares, but cantankerous in other ways.

But yes, 4hr hr take home is going to be a barrier.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#545

Post by SkyPuncher »

kstenerud wrote: post #538

This is not directed at you, but rather at the poor hiring practices that have permeated the software industry for too long. We've been gaslighted into accepting abusive hiring practices, and it has to stop. When you're hiring an accountant, do you give them 4h take-home assignments? How about hours of interviews with your accounting team to suss out their accounting skills and critique their style? I mean, how DO yo…

> When you're hiring an accountant, do you give them 4h take-home assignments? How about hours of interviews with your accounting team to suss out their accounting skills and critique their style? I mean, how DO you determine if they're real accountants or one of these fakers I've heard so much about that can't even do some simple books?

I'm a software engineer. My brother is an accountant.

I know you're trying to pick a theoretical, but the answer to most of those questions is still yes. I don't think he had a take-home project, but he most definitely had several rounds of heavy-technical interviews. I'd much prefer the take home test over the BS he has to deal with.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#546

Post by lolinder »

dominotw wrote: post #357
scruple wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that. Just wanted to back this up a little bit. This is exactly what happened to me on my last job search. I'm currently in between jobs, starting the new gig after the 4th of July holid…

really hope they cut out this referral stuff. These guys have turned all of silicon valley into incestuous bro-land. This needs to be made illegal.

Referrals aren't a silicon valley thing or even a tech thing. The first bit of advice you get from anyone when it comes to a job search in any field is to leverage your network.

It's not about discrimination, it's because the single best way to know if someone can pull their weight and mesh with the team is if an existing, trusted member of the team can vouch for them. On the flip side, the single best way to know if a job is worth pursuing is to have it recommended by a trusted colleague.

Why would you not use those signals? And why in the world would any government make networking illegal? The economic impact on every sector would be insane!

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#547

Post by ikiris »

lmc wrote: post #352
alexanderh wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THANK YOU, THIS ^^^ Any company needing to "Test" me, is an instant sign of disrespect. It means you already don't trust me so I don't trust you. Now obviously there needs to be some accountability, and I think a 90 probationary period is a perfect compromise. When you are hiring senior talent, we aren't desperate or dying for your job. You need to sell it to us. You need to accommodate us. You need to make it easy f…

Entitled much? Instead of 4 hours of your time [0], you get to waste up to 90 days of an employer's? (or more likely some multiple of that, counting interactions with others on the team) [0] it probably takes even more of the employer's time in reviewing and discussing the application. Hiring sucks for all parties. Everyone should try to meet half way, and be respectful of the other's time.

Good luck with that. Employeers need good senior staff a lot more than those senior staff usually need that specific job.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#548

Post by en4bz »

kstenerud wrote: post #538

This is not directed at you, but rather at the poor hiring practices that have permeated the software industry for too long. We've been gaslighted into accepting abusive hiring practices, and it has to stop. When you're hiring an accountant, do you give them 4h take-home assignments? How about hours of interviews with your accounting team to suss out their accounting skills and critique their style? I mean, how DO yo…

All the jobs you listed have professional associations that require passing exams. If you required the same level of testing and exams for devs I doubt half the software industry would pass.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#549

Post by SkyPuncher »

joshmanders wrote: post #442
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exactly where in that schedule am I supposed to fit a FOUR HOUR coding assignment. That's ridiculous. Unless you're providing child care, this is simply too much. What do you do for normal on-site interviews or phone interviews that have similar time demands? I’m also a parent of small children with a packed schedule, but I’d much rather take a 4-hour take home and handle it on the weekend or when I’m flexible. Giv…

It’s easy really. Walk. As a senior it’s insulting to expect to do a four hour take home test. When you hire a Michelin star chef do you make them make you a four course meal to prove they can cook? Do you make a surgeon do four hour surgery? It’s absolutely asinine that we accept this behavior in our industry. You’d be laughed at by every possible candidate in other industries.

> When you hire a Michelin star chef do you make them make you a four course meal to prove they can cook?

> Do you make a surgeon do four hour surgery?

These are both poor examples. These are both credentialed examples. Both have already demonstrated their skill based on the credentials they hold.

Software development is not a credentialed field. Titles vary wildly - especially at startups where titles inflate.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#550

Post by quantum_state »

kstenerud wrote: post #538

This is not directed at you, but rather at the poor hiring practices that have permeated the software industry for too long. We've been gaslighted into accepting abusive hiring practices, and it has to stop. When you're hiring an accountant, do you give them 4h take-home assignments? How about hours of interviews with your accounting team to suss out their accounting skills and critique their style? I mean, how DO yo…

Would second what you said. If a team does not have the ability and confidence to determine hiring based on usual interviews, the team is not worth joining.
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