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Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

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Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#171
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slap a 100% capital gains tax on any property that is not owner-occupied This is backwards. Such a tax will be a strong incentive to never ever sell since the seller would hand off all gains to the tax man. Who would want to sell? Instead, you'd want to actually incentivize selling if you're not living on the property. Make the capital gain tax very low, that makes selling it off the most attractive option.

> This is backwards. Such a tax will be a strong incentive to never ever sell since the seller would hand off all gains to the tax man. Who would want to sell? Good point, thanks for the criticism. There are many ways to solve this problem. > Instead, you'd want to actually incentivize selling if you're not living on the property. Make the capital gain tax very low, that makes selling it off the most attractive optio…

The tax on income should be consistent irrespective of the source.

The best argument for favorable LTCG taxes is that naive taxation of long-term capital gains as current-year income in a progressive tax system overtaxes income that takes an extended period to generate and isn't repeatable, but allowances for advance recognition and/or deferral of recognition of income for tax purposes solve that and are also usable for non-capital income that is concentrated over a shorter time than the work to generate it (as is often the case for creative work.)

If you want to encourage sales of idle assets of a particular class, tax the asset, don't lower the capital gains tax.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#172
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's punishing people for being not productive in a very specific, narrow sense--productivity per unit land. Moreover (for clarity's sake), the parent said "stop punishing people for being productive" not "start punishing people for being unproductive" which sound similar but are very different statements.

I don't think this adds any value to the interpretation of the parent's comment and seems overly pedantic. What does your hair-splitting provide when the central thesis of the parent is arguing that land value tax is a tax on productivity when you've even conceded the rebuttal?

Lol, the parent was being just as pedantic as I was, and it’s fine. If he’s going to explore abstract technicalities, he invites others to do so as well. I’m sure he’s a grown up and can handle it, and he may even welcome it. If it’s not your cup of tea, downvote and move along.

In this case the “added value” is the distinction between “not broadly punishing productivity” and narrowly punishing one kind of unproductivity (as it pertains to land use).

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#173

It doesn't have to be this complicated. We don't need a land value tax. The most straight forward way to make people avoid speculating is to heavily tax all non-primary residence homes. Cap the amount people can charge in rent to some %s of purchase value (incentive to have high purchase value) to and set a baseline on the taxes required and make the math for building property empire bleak (absolute destruction of th…

> The most straight forward way to make people avoid speculating is to heavily tax all non-primary residence homes. Cap the amount people can charge in rent to some %s of purchase value (incentive to have high purchase value) to and set a baseline on the taxes required and make the math for building property empire bleak (absolute destruction of the housing-as-a-financial-asset model).

LVT + UBI would accomplish the same thing (and then some) more fairly and efficiently; UBI would subsidize the LVT for your primary residence, while secondary residences (and residences owned by corporations and other non-residents) would see no such benefit.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's punishing people for being not productive in a very specific, narrow sense--productivity per unit land. Moreover (for clarity's sake), the parent said "stop punishing people for being productive" not "start punishing people for being unproductive" which sound similar but are very different statements.

shrug. rent seeking landowners are the greatest threat to a healthy economy.

I genuinely don’t know anything about economics. Is this widely accepted among economists or is it more of an ideological/political axiom?

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#175
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless one company could find a way to produce goods with less energy than their competitors, or obtain its energy from cleaner sources, perhaps by investing in solar power. Sure. Let’s take that solar power investment: under your proposed regime, the cost of the supplies and materials and electronics of the R&D employees would be bear a carbon tax. The electricity to power the lightning and electronics would beat…

The transportation could be done via electric vehicles. The lighting and electronics could itself be powered by greener sources. Maybe not for the first new solar farm constructed, but over time as the infrastructure was built out. And the tax would incentivize the building of that infrastructure. Let me ask: do you think it's possible in a literal sense for society to emit greenhouse gases? If it's not possible, you…

> The transportation could be done via electric vehicles. The lighting and electronics could itself be powered by greener sources. Maybe not for the first new solar farm constructed, but over time as the infrastructure was built out. And the tax would incentivize the building of that infrastructure.

Every single thing you just listed would take energy to produce and would bear a carbon tax because a carbon tax is really just an energy tax. The electric vehicles need batteries, the batteries need lithium, and the lithium has to come out of the ground. This results in a product with much more mass than your typical ICE, thus has more energy put into its production, but to offset this the electricity can theoretically come from some solar farm in the Mojave desert. In practice it probably comes from a gas fired plant, but that is still a lot better than if it were to come from a coal powered plant (and sometimes it does).

Everything we do by living has an impact on the planet. Actually to be more exact anything any living creature does has an impact on the planet, but we’re the only species that thinks on a planetary scale (except maybe birds, I’m sure there’s a fun philosophical discussion there but we’ll have to table it) and therefore care about this ecosystem we have conceptualized as a planet.

So when I eat some beans or drink milk and or a cow eats some grass or “feed”, we both emit a GHG with a global warming potential of 27-30 over 100 years. You should be happy to note that as a responsible citizen of this planet, I have omitted both beans and milk from my diet. Unfortunately my hypothetical methane account is probably overdrawn on account of my love of steak as my primary source of protein.

No. We cannot live without waste as a necessary product of living, and since there’s a lot of us, we waste a lot of energy. What we can do is get a lot more efficient with our energy usage and reduce the total amount of waste, but we will continue to be GHG emitters for as long as we have civilization. Either we find some way to get the planet to absorb more of our emissions or we naturally die off until we reach an equilibrium with the planet. That could be billions of us or it could be zero of us. I’m unconvinced tax policy will be our silver bullet, nor will cronyism.

> we should financially reward people who make greener choices.

Which brings me to my final point. If you mean this in a private market sense, that’s fine. If you mean this as an extension of tax policy and the course of government business, this is called cronyism—the government picking winners and losers and is a fine example of why our tax code is already so complex. We have plenty of that already, and I would like to see less to the point that it approaches or eventually achieves zero but I’m not holding my breath.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#176
The housing capacity of neighborhoods can be greatly increased w/o destroying their character. Seattle is now permitting additional dwelling units, e.g. "mother-in-law"s and tiny houses, on existing properties and I can assure you that they are being built. The rents on them are well below what a developer of the density buildings, (which steal the views and charm of existing homes and transfer that value to developers and to realtors like Redfin), would charge.

LVT is a good idea. If it convinces neighborhoods to accept re-zoning then fine. If not then just use the tax dollars to promote housing. One good use would be improving transit to help neighborhoods handle more residents and to reduce the need for cars. Fewer cars could mean fewer garages, which in turn could become more auxiliary dwelling units.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#177

Disagree. We should go the other way, abolish all primary residence property taxes and replace with value added taxes. Other lands for secondary and commercial properties can still be taxed. Otherwise you are really just leasing land from the government. On a somewhat absurd tangent, I’ve been toying with the idea of something I call a “land dividend” to solve homelessness. If every US citizen had by birthright, a sm…

> If every US citizen had by birthright, a small parcel of land with no taxes owed, they would always have somewhere to go.

And at some point you run out of land, after which point you'd need to shrink everyone else's parcels to make room for new birthright parcels. Further, not all land is equal; if one parcel has a bunch of features that another lacks, then it stands to reason that unless the former is smaller than the latter, the citizens assigned to either would be on an unequal footing.

In short: what you call a "land dividend", once you've addressed the above, is literally Georgism - specifically, LVT plus a citizens' dividend (more modernly known as "UBI"). This results in a self-balancing system for ensuring every American enjoys one's equal share of America's land value. Own more than your fair share? You pay more LVT than you get from UBI. Own less than your fair share? You get more UBI than you pay LVT.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#179

It doesn't have to be this complicated. We don't need a land value tax. The most straight forward way to make people avoid speculating is to heavily tax all non-primary residence homes. Cap the amount people can charge in rent to some %s of purchase value (incentive to have high purchase value) to and set a baseline on the taxes required and make the math for building property empire bleak (absolute destruction of th…

> The most straight forward way to make people avoid speculating is to heavily tax all non-primary residence homes. Cap the amount people can charge in rent to some %s of purchase value (incentive to have high purchase value) to and set a baseline on the taxes required and make the math for building property empire bleak (absolute destruction of the housing-as-a-financial-asset model). LVT + UBI would accomplish the…

> LVT + UBI would accomplish the same thing (and then some) more fairly and efficiently; UBI would subsidize the LVT for your primary residence, while secondary residences (and residences owned by corporations and other non-residents) would see no such benefit.

Sure that could work, but it looks like 5x the complexity and political will required.

Also, I'm not fully sold on UBI, because I haven't heard a convincing argument on why it wouldn't lead to persistent inflation. As the economy moves towards a you-will-own-nothing stance (to be fair, I'm contributing to this in trying to launch and operate SaaS services)

Even if UBI was the answer, the political fight is bigger, I think. Let's just be honest and straightforward about what we (well, some of us -- it is a democratic republic after all) want, we want people to stop speculating on houses and use them for living.

Assuming we can agree on the premise, tax the behavior we want to disincentivize as directly as possible, be clear about why we're doing it. Clear hearts, full hearts, can't lose. Just kidding this is politics so absolutely can lose but you get the idea.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LVT doesn't radically alter that, just adds a stick incentive as well as a carrot incentive Yes, that's the point, the current levels of incentive are not working so we need to crank it up > LVT doesn't solve the neighbours not wanting it The point is to crank up the pain, a lot. NIMBY-ism can be very local since not every parcel of land is being developed at the same time, but the beauty of LVT is that land value…

> The point is to crank up the pain, a lot. NIMBY-ism can be very local since not every parcel of land is being developed at the same time, but the beauty of LVT is that land value doesn't vary much in a local immediate area, so it hits everyone the same. The idea is that if everyone is hurting, they will seek relief as a group by overall relaxing restrictions that would better allow them to meet their tax burden. No…

> people who are guilty of the crime of enjoying a house they bought in an area which is nice

The crime is not climbing the ladder, it's climbing the ladder and then pulling it up so only the few who overcome a much higher stumbling block can join. Or, as satire site Reductress put it, "‘All Are Welcome Here,’ Says Sign in Neighborhood Where Average Home Costs $2 Million"

> https://reductress.com/post/all-are-welcome-here-says-sign-i...

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