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Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

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Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#241
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. Completely agree here - like a fool I recently went through an entire day's worth interviews for a role (hello Stripe recruiters!!) that required both me and my wife taking PTO, with her looking after the kids while I talked to one junior dev after another abo…

As something of a counterpoint, a literal 4-hour assignment isn't that bad--especially as an alternative to a day of interviews. If they give you the assignment and it's immediately obvious that it's actually a 20+ hour assignment, you can always just walk. When I worked for a technology analyst company, we would ask for writing samples--which most potential hires would already have. But, if someone didn't, they'd ha…

> As something of a counterpoint, a literal 4-hour assignment isn't that bad--especially as an alternative to a day of interviews.

As a counter counterpoint, that only makes sense if the candidate is applying to a single place.

If the candidate has lined up 4 interviews, they're not going to get 16 hours in the week to complete them. The fifth place that has no 4 hour interviews will get the candidate.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

Seems like a good way to weed out people that are constantly taking time off to deal with kid issues.

> Seems like a good way to weed out people that are constantly taking time off to deal with kid issues.

That's just a different way of saying "a good way to weed out seniors", which is what the original concern was - not enough seniors.

Looks like it works, though.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#243
post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

I'm a "senior" (I was 55 when I started looking), and I didn't have a "network," because I was a manager, and wanted to get back into technical stuff (I'm very good at technical stuff, but I was paid to manage). I had a network of pretty heavy-duty people, but they all knew me as a manager, and I didn't want to put them on the spot for technical stuff, since that wasn't how they knew me. That basically meant that I h…

I'm super happy that you found such a fulfilling role!

Was wondering if you could elaborate on this a bit:

> I set up a small company, so I could buy toys, and started following my own muse.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#244
I am going to add one thing that I haven't heard here. You probably need to raise the cash in your offer by a lot. Most mid-size companies think that they can get away with offering equity at a ridiculous valuation and attract people who aren't true believers. Most people aren't true believers in miscellaneous DevOps that doesn't involve a lot of code.

I have spoken to a few series-C and D companies that wanted to give me $X00,000 worth of stock at their series C valuation. I informed them that I needed $X,000,000 of common stock (at that valuation) to match the expected value of my gig at the time, or I would take $X00,000 of preferred stock (whatever they gave their series C investors). They thought that was crazy. If you pretend that the people you are trying to hire don't understand the economics of your stock price, you are only doing yourself a disservice.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#245
I'm at a FAANG and our team has the same problem. Hiring is tight right now. Pretty sure we pay more than you.

Benefits and salary are "good"? Example from another situation: I own my house not because I made a "good" offer. Plenty of people made a "good" offer. I made the best offer.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#246
> - Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing > - Presentation of technical assignment to the team

Are these two jokes? What makes you think you're worth somebody wasting their time with such stuff? How about you actually interview them properly 1:1 and stop wasting the candidates time?

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#247
first off, 4h assignments are almost never 4h assignments. at best they tend to be 4h coding, 1h of non-coding stuff (check out repo, branch repo, create repo, pr etc. read specs to make what you are going to make)

I have only ever had one actual 4h assignment that took exactly 4 hours, I was amazed. They actually wanted me to spend more than 4 hours.

I also had one assignment that had a bug in a particular library that was supposed to be used, I spent 4 hours solving that bug, at the end of which I could then have spent 4+ hours to make the solution.

but most assignments are in the 6-8 hour range while advertising 4h.

Part of the reason for this is most assignments are supposedly wanting you to make quality solutions etc. which is at odds with the supposed reasons for you to take assignments which are, as I have heard it stated, that a large number of programmers don't know how to program or program so badly it isn't worth hiring them. But take home assignments are not just that you can program (so you don't make the mistake of hiring someone who then sits around for a few months not contributing before you fire them) but also that you can produce quality code, that is to say it is really worthwhile hiring this person.

think about it, you want to hire a senior, but you think a 4 hour assignment is going to really help you determine that they are a senior? I remember a fellow I worked with once had a ballpark rule that the smallest time a ticket could take would be half a day, so 4 hours. Why that? Well once you added in reading the ticket, asking about any not well specified parts, made your branch, did the code, tested, made pr, accepted code review, you were almost always at 4 hours. (it was only a ballpark rule, obviously there were some 1 lines, typos etc. that took less but most often 4 hours was a trivial ticket)

So you are able to test the quality of a potential hire by giving them a trivial ticket?

So this leads to people 'cheating' on the assignment, doing more than 4 hours. So maybe 4 hours of coding, but then cleanup, then maybe modularization, then documenting what you did sending back the message etc. This was basically what that 4h assignment that really was 4h I discussed earlier wanted, they wanted me to make everything pretty after I finished. They asked me if I had another hour what I would have done, I guess at that point if I still wanted the job I would have said I would have done these things but instead I said I would have taken a nap because I finished the job as described in 4. Because, he I am willing to take a little test or something to prove yes I can program but not waste 4 hours of my life.

I also have a family as has been pointed out is a real filter on people being willing to do this.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me (20+ year club): 1.) Senior Dev referred me, and they had a remarkable relationship with management - informal chat and offer that afternoon 2.) Senior Dev referred me, and they had a normal relationship with management - regular interview 3.) CTO referred me - informal chat with them and the CEO, offer letter handed to me at the end of the chat with the CEO. So I've found that it really depends on who is refe…

Agreed, well said. I could make a similar list as you did, but it's essentially the same. VPs, and CTOs most often, informal chat, offer.

Yeah, the last couple of jobs in particular it wasn't getting a standard referral through the HR system. The first we were clients of a technology analyst firm CEO who I knew quite well and had met and spoken with at many events. The second was someone who had been clients of ours at the consulting company. In the first case, the "interview" was a lunch. In the second, it was a semi-normal hiring process but I talked to the most senior folks, starting with a chat with the product head, first.

Really haven't had a "normal" hiring process since first job out of grad school (shudder) 25 years ago.

Not dev per se but technology role.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#249
post #223
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the law is. Years ago, but I've been paid for doing a focus group in cash. So there's presumably some threshold where you can just have essentially a petty cash business expense. Obviously meals and so forth as well. (And, assuming the law hasn't changed, US government employees have to pay for even a modest meal at a company's executive briefing center.) OTOH, I've had 1099s for even very modest si…

> So there's presumably some threshold where you can just have essentially a petty cash business expense. $600

How surprisingly sensible. :-)

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

Seems like a good way to weed out people that are constantly taking time off to deal with kid issues.

hopefully you forgot the /s at the end of your comment?

at any rate evidently 89.615% of people become parents https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-people-become-paren...

so, probably not a good thing to weed out.

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