Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 794 posts

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#171

Post by the_watcher »

corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

I just wrapped up a take home project. When I was told about it, I told the HM that I withdraw from processes that include a take home. They told me that they understood, but that this one really did only take an hour or two, and that they’d send it over to me anyway. All they asked was that I take a look, and if I completed it, they’d send me a $150 Amazon gift card. I took a look, and it really did seem straightforward (basically testing what I’d expect a live, 30-45 minute DS interview to cover), so I went ahead and did it. I ended up spending 2.5 hours on it, but only because I got sucked into making very pretty charts.

I’m pretty anti-take home, because they’re usually scoped as “it should only take you 4-5 hours, here’s a project that would take an in house DS a week at minimum”, but if they were actually scoped like this one (and even mildly comped), I really wouldn’t mind much.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#172

Post by l30n4da5 »

Besides the take-home, which has been addressed in other comments (in short, a take-home for a senior role is just a flat 'no' from me), it would definitely help to include salary range in the postings.

When I was searching, if a company did not include a salary range, I automatically excluded it.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#173

Post by nsxwolf »

jitix wrote: post #100
AndyNemmity wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, take home technical assignment. Why would I ever? I'd much rather have a comfortable conversation with someone who has worked with me in the past. I'm never, ever doing a 4 hour assignment for you.

But isn't the alternative to take home assignment leetcoding on whiteboards? Last time I was interviewing in the US market was in 2017 and it was literally just these two options. And the assignments tended to be long - like a week long. (tbh there were a few companies that pre-offered and just wanted one general discussion round with the team but they felt shady and desperate, and one was a literal consultancy) Coul…

I've been duped into take-homes a few times. The one time I wasn't ghosted after submitting, they asked me to come in for an on-site... to do leetcode.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#174

Post by PheonixPharts »

> Benefits and salary are good (though salary isn't posted in the ad)

Care to put a range on the value of "good"?

My experience when searching is that any company claiming "salaries are good" probably isn't even worth my time talking to. Occasionally I'll reply to recruiters if the role looks interesting but it's not uncommon that they can't even match my base, let alone my TC (and I don't even have that great of a TC).

Most truly senior devs that I know are working for a company that can offer considerable RSUs in addition to a solid base + bonus. When I see "salary is good" I'm assuming you're offering below 200k.

If you want senior devs to apply post that your total comp is somewhere in the 300k-400k range.

However I'm guessing that your comp is nowhere in that range, and I think it's fair to assume that most other senior devs also are making that guess.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#175

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

I'm a "senior" (I was 55 when I started looking), and I didn't have a "network," because I was a manager, and wanted to get back into technical stuff (I'm very good at technical stuff, but I was paid to manage). I had a network of pretty heavy-duty people, but they all knew me as a manager, and I didn't want to put them on the spot for technical stuff, since that wasn't how they knew me.

That basically meant that I had to come in the front door to places I was interested in.

I was a bit "picky," because I wanted to do stuff that interested me. I didn't really care about making a lot of money, or beanbag chairs, or whatnot. I wanted to do work that engaged me.

I'm a very experienced Apple native developer, and I'm good at writing stuff that talks to other stuff (like client/server systems, device control, realtime video, etc.). I'm good at writing APIs and SDKs. Making devices sit up and beg is something I've always enjoyed.

So places that did stuff like that, interested me.

In my experience, I was treated like absolute crap. After a few rounds of "interviews" (which seemed to be opportunities for relatively young engineers and managers to patronize and condescend me), I just said "bugger this for a lark," and decided that I was retired. I set up a small company, so I could buy toys, and started following my own muse. I found some folks doing non-profit stuff, that couldn't afford people of my caliber, and started working with them, for free.

It was the best decision I've ever made. In the last five years, I've probably done more work than I did in two decades previously, I've learned more, every day, than I have, since my twenties.

[UPDATED TO ADD] If you want "senior" people, they are likely to come with a rather fetching shade of grey to their well-coiffed pompadours, and I'd suggest that it would be rather self-destructive to treat them badly. There seems to be considerable resentment towards us older folks. I'm not one to judge whether or not it is merited (in my case, it is definitely not), but it may interfere with efforts to recruit more experienced folks.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#176

Post by jjav »

corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

This. Four hour assignment? That's a hard No. Unless you're very clearly offering something far above the norm (in either total comp or autonomy or working conditions or a combination thereof), I'm certainly not going to bother with your interview process.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#177

Post by AussieWog93 »

Nextgrid wrote: post #159

Ultimately employment is a market. You're expecting something in exchange for some money. Your objective is to get as much of "something" for the least amount of money. The candidate's objective is to get as much money for the least amount of "something". Junior candidates are more flexible on this as they might do it for the passion of the tech or to make a name for themselves but seniors already have a "name" and n…

I'd add to this, as someone who runs an eCommerce business: the general public is surprisingly lazy when it comes to optimising the returns on their time/money.

We've found things like attractive pictures, high-ranking listings and reduced legwork for customers have a far greater impact on sales than the price or quality of the good itself.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#178

Post by ghaff »

Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #160
anon291 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

> The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. Completely agree here - like a fool I recently went through an entire day's worth interviews for a role (hello Stripe recruiters!!) that required both me and my wife taking PTO, with her looking after the kids while I talked to one junior dev after another abo…

As something of a counterpoint, a literal 4-hour assignment isn't that bad--especially as an alternative to a day of interviews. If they give you the assignment and it's immediately obvious that it's actually a 20+ hour assignment, you can always just walk.

When I worked for a technology analyst company, we would ask for writing samples--which most potential hires would already have. But, if someone didn't, they'd have to create one. It was very reasonably a non-negotiable requirement given that's what they'd be doing day to day.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#179

Post by user00012-ab »

anon291 wrote: post #139
corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

Seems like a good way to weed out people that are constantly taking time off to deal with kid issues.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#180

Post by the_watcher »

bonzini wrote: post #157
anon291 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

> perhaps pay people to complete the assignments. Assuming this is legal at all according to current employment contracts, it's a huge pain for the new employer's payroll and more stuff to keep track for the employee's income tax.

Two companies have offered me Amazon gift cards, one of them told me that it’s far easier for tax purposes (my understanding is that this is why user research often offers them, rather than cash). I assume they could give prepaid debit cards too, for people who prefer not to shop at Amazon.
Post reply on HN