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What SimpleGeo could have been

blog.danrhodes.com

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Re: What SimpleGeo could have been

#11

Post by gord »

Geo-data is effectively 'read-only', it seems to me..

There are things local people know about, which still diffuse by word of mouth - and I still see paper notices posted on lamp-posts and at supermarket boards. This is why I did an experiment and built lokenote.com

I havent nailed it with lokenote, but it hints theres something there... Im aware this is a first, imperfect approximation of the kind of tool that will enable people to annotate locations. Sometimes you need to build these experiments to see what works or doesn't.

I dont think the storing/retrieving of geo-data is that hard a problem, you can roll your own nested squares approach, or reuse whats there now, eg. Mongo 2d indexes.

Rather, I think the problem is making a nice way to integrate the location dimension into our tools/web apps more seamlessly. eg. a dating chat app might just favour partners close to your location without being told what postcodes to look in. I see this as a 'too many knobs' type problem ( a bit like those search forms you see that have options for 10 different dimensions to filter on, which are better replaced by a single text search field, with hidden smarts. )

So how to bring location to the people, so its useful, effective, un-intrusive and read-write ? I dont think that question has been answered.

[edit readability]

Re: What SimpleGeo could have been

#12

Post by buro9 »

gord wrote: post #11

Geo-data is effectively 'read-only', it seems to me.. There are things local people know about, which still diffuse by word of mouth - and I still see paper notices posted on lamp-posts and at supermarket boards. This is why I did an experiment and built lokenote.com I havent nailed it with lokenote, but it hints theres something there... Im aware this is a first, imperfect approximation of the kind of tool that will…

I'm not sure I'd regard it as read only.

Whilst it's true a lot of data appears to be read only (of the kind, what is where?), even geological features change given enough time (or little time if we're talking water features in a world of global warming).

Given that what we're discussing is mostly man-made features, such as physical buildings and the businesses that occupy them... these are open to change. Buildings get built, demolished, and far more frequently modified.

And then there are problems like "Where can I park?". Most parking in London is street parking rather than car parks, and parking restrictions change frequently enough that it isn't static data.

Once you concede time is a dimension that affects spatial information, you open yourself up to far more interesting possibilities: What is happening nearby? Where are my friends? There's traffic up the road, what's causing it and should I detour?

This is massively changing data. It could be expressed as a read-only stream of 'events' that 'occur' at different places (check-ins, tracking data)... but the data is refreshed so frequently that storing as a read-only audit trail of events just disguises the fact that people will perceive the information as permanently changing.

I think the hardest part of dealing with geospatial data is ensuring that it is fresh enough to be valuable data. And that is to work from the point of view that everything changes constantly.

Re: What SimpleGeo could have been

#13

Post by nosignal »

gord wrote: post #11

Geo-data is effectively 'read-only', it seems to me.. There are things local people know about, which still diffuse by word of mouth - and I still see paper notices posted on lamp-posts and at supermarket boards. This is why I did an experiment and built lokenote.com I havent nailed it with lokenote, but it hints theres something there... Im aware this is a first, imperfect approximation of the kind of tool that will…

Geo-grafitti isn't new, but it hasn't taken off either. I like the idea (especially in Melb!), but I agree it's difficult to make seamless. Seems like it could be ubiquitous with the right implementation.

Can you make the app push-enabled, so you can be notified when you're close to a lokenote? (Noting I have no idea about push-enablement). It seems like the big difference is you notice "missing cat" posters and/or new cafes as you walk down the street; having to check your app every 5 meters is less useful. Push could help that.

I don't think this will really take off until we have full-time AR overlays on our normal vision. Of course, that's just wishful thinking ;)

Re: What SimpleGeo could have been

#14

Post by gord »

buro9 wrote: post #12
gord wrote: post #11

Geo-data is effectively 'read-only', it seems to me.. There are things local people know about, which still diffuse by word of mouth - and I still see paper notices posted on lamp-posts and at supermarket boards. This is why I did an experiment and built lokenote.com I havent nailed it with lokenote, but it hints theres something there... Im aware this is a first, imperfect approximation of the kind of tool that will…

I'm not sure I'd regard it as read only. Whilst it's true a lot of data appears to be read only (of the kind, what is where?), even geological features change given enough time (or little time if we're talking water features in a world of global warming). Given that what we're discussing is mostly man-made features, such as physical buildings and the businesses that occupy them... these are open to change. Buildings…

yes.. I didn't mean to say location information is time-static.. I want there to be better tools / web UI to supply current location information. So the person in the street can flag something, and other people can make use of that.

By 'read-only' I mean its not easy for people to supply location information thats current. I put into Lokenote app an expiry date tumbler - eg. Street party for a few hours, blocked drain for a few days, building site for a few weeks.

Because of overhead at the moment, youd probably only enter location information that is going to be there for a long time.. but if it were easier to share that, wed see a more dynamic and relevant picture over smaller time scales.

Wikipedia, etc, have made an effort to standardise so that wiki articles can be tagged to a location, but I think theres a whole mass of less formal information thats really useful thats not being captured or used - ants would leave pheremones to signal other ants, we currently leave paper notes on lampposts, there should be a better way.

Re: What SimpleGeo could have been

#16

Post by captain-asshat »

While certainly not free, SQL Server 2008 introduced some pretty nice spacial data tools. It can find points within a radius, capture points within a polygon, intersections/unions, and quite a bit more. It also has full support for true spacial indexes which makes dealing with large amounts of data very fast.

I've just completed a project using these tools quite extensively, and found them a really nice way of handling all my geo data. Being T-SQL, there's not much to learn to make use of it either.

Re: What SimpleGeo could have been

#17

Post by gord »

nosignal wrote: post #13
gord wrote: post #11

Geo-data is effectively 'read-only', it seems to me.. There are things local people know about, which still diffuse by word of mouth - and I still see paper notices posted on lamp-posts and at supermarket boards. This is why I did an experiment and built lokenote.com I havent nailed it with lokenote, but it hints theres something there... Im aware this is a first, imperfect approximation of the kind of tool that will…

Geo-grafitti isn't new, but it hasn't taken off either. I like the idea (especially in Melb!), but I agree it's difficult to make seamless. Seems like it could be ubiquitous with the right implementation. Can you make the app push-enabled, so you can be notified when you're close to a lokenote? (Noting I have no idea about push-enablement). It seems like the big difference is you notice "missing cat" posters and/or n…

yeah I really want Lokenote to be realtime, but hit the practicality of shipping.. so its 'hit refresh' initially :[

My intuition is that 'Layers/Layars' are a good abstraction for developers.. but I think maybe simple tag / search might be a better way to filter those things I want to be notified about as I walk around?

AR is cool, but I wonder if this coolness actually gets in the way.

Id like to set some interest filters and then walk around and get push notifications on my mobile home screen. Eg: set 'tell me about' = 'clothing discounts', 'art deco buildings', '2nd hand record shops' and 'friends with status Im-up-for-a-coffee'.

I think we need to take that step so that the technology kind of disappears into the background - location isn't there yet.

I dont think it needs a HUD VR helmet to work - just look at how crappy and successful the keyboard is.. so, yeah, simple short text notifications as you walk around would really make this meld into the daily routine.

great idea, thanks. its a bit of work, but doable.

Re: What SimpleGeo could have been

#18

Post by krisw »

This is disappointing. We have a webapp and (small) GPU datacenter that can extract tens of billions of polygons per day from remote sensing imagery (gis.incogna.com). I felt quite happy to see SimpleGeo working on a decentralized approach to the storage component.
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