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Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

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191–200 of 349 posts

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#191

Near the beginning of the pandemic, I had a pretty bad toothache spring up out of basically nowhere. Bad enough that sleeping was difficult and eating was impossible. I went to see a dental surgeon (I forget the proper name for this) and he told me I needed a root canal, and backed it up with X-rays. It made sense, I had trouble with this tooth before and a previous dentist told me that a root canal and crown on this…

I had fillings that failed and three of my teeth needed crowns (they really did). I was quoted $2500 per crown. My insurance only covered up to $1000 per year and I didn't have a great job at the time, so I was like "well, no way I can afford $6500" and did nothing. Eventually the teeth got so bad they had to be removed, and had to get two bridges put in. That was quoted at $6k apiece. At that point I did have a good…

I think what you're referring to in your last paragraph is a CEREC crown, but it's not always cheaper. In my case, my insurance covers a lab-made crown with a $100 copay. It takes a few days to be made, so it's slightly inconvenient. Same-day CEREC crowns aren't covered by my insurance, and cost around $500-$800 at the dentists I went to.

I discovered this last year when I went to a new dentist and they recommended two CEREC crowns and a laser gum cleaning at a total cost of around $2000. This was surprising, because I thought my dental insurance was pretty good. Turns out, it is: the dentist was just electing to use more expensive methods that weren't covered by insurance and failed to tell me about the options. I did some research later and found that the laser cleaning was not demonstrably better than the traditional approach in terms of outcomes (though I think the gums are supposed to heal faster) and was not endorsed by the periodontist professional society. I saw some sources which said that the same-day CEREC crown is actually worse than the lab-made crown in terms of fit and durability.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#192
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...but every 3 months. When pressed on why, eventually they'll admit it's how nice it feels to have clean teeth and how important your smile is - but NOT strictly necessary for health. Sometimes they can give a proper reason. Like in my example I've got some largish gum pockets around three of my teeth that are getting better but still not great (was a lot worse before they did some deep cleaning 9 months ago, I wa…

Did the hygienist measure your gaps and recommend interdental toothbrush sizes so you can do it yourself regularly? Tepe is a good brand but any really will do as long as you know what size to use. My hygienist measured and wrote sizes down for each gap between teeth.

Fun fact that I’m quite proud of: my father is the reason measuring your pockets is standard of care (he’s a periodontist turned attorney and lecturer). Question any dentist that doesn’t do this as part of cleanings.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#193
post #136

Ah this article put the finger on why I don't trust my 'new dentist': The operation is just too slick from a business POV. As someone familiar with SaaS or in general this kind of recurring business model, you can sense all the little operational policies and procedures designed to increase your LTV. It's a well-oiled machine. Without fail, the hygienist recommends cleaning not once every 12 months or even every 6 mo…

Yup. In fact, a great hack is to go to an inexperienced dentist instead of an experienced one for routine work. The reason is that dentists who are fresh out of school are competent enough to do basic cleanings and checkups. But they haven't yet had time to accrete the expensive habits, and the little business optimizations that feed them, that highly-paid professionals often develop. I generally switch dentists ever…

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Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#194
> In other medical contexts, such as a visit to a general practitioner or a cardiologist, we are fairly accustomed to seeking a second opinion before agreeing to surgery or an expensive regimen of pills with harsh side effects. But in the dentist’s office—perhaps because we both dread dental procedures and belittle their medical significance—the impulse is to comply without much consideration, to get the whole thing over with as quickly as possible.

Around 10 years ago, during one of the dentists appointment, my wife had to perform an x-ray scan of the whole mouth. Besides the stuff dentist wanted to confirm, he found out that she has her wisdom teeth grew in a little problematic direction that might become painful in very short time and suggested to remove them before that happens.

That said, such operation would require narcosis. Both of us are very skeptical when someone wants to do something for us that requires putting us into that state so we've gone to another dentist to get another opinion.

Turned out, that other dentist said that he don't see any problem with my wife's wisdom teeth and warned us, that the operation other dentist suggested was very dangerous and had high probability that it could break some jaw nerves very easily which could lead to partly face paralysis.

So yeah, 10 years has passed and my wife has never experienced any pain caused by her wisdom teeth - maybe got lucky or maybe that 1st dentist was just plain wrong.

But in the end I've always tend to be warned and while having any doubts, it's worth to spend some money just to double check if suggested treatment is really good for us (or necessary).

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#195

Personal anecdote about this: My wisdom teeth grew in about 15 years ago and have sat comfortably behind my molars since. I saw a new dentist for a routine cleaning “intro package” where she suggested that I have the wisdom teeth removed. I asked her why should I have a surgery for this since I never had problems with them. She said it was a good idea because they were “more likely to develop a cavity” because they a…

> surgery to avoid the risk of developing a cavity because I might not know how to brush teeth that I have had for 15 years and never had a cavity on That's not because you don't know how to brush teeth, it's because it is physically hard to reach them. Sometimes even impossible, because part of tooth is hidden beneath gum.

Even still, the OP wouldn’t be any worse off waiting for a cavity and getting the tooth pulled then. Pushing surgery now is sketchy AF.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#196
post #136

Ah this article put the finger on why I don't trust my 'new dentist': The operation is just too slick from a business POV. As someone familiar with SaaS or in general this kind of recurring business model, you can sense all the little operational policies and procedures designed to increase your LTV. It's a well-oiled machine. Without fail, the hygienist recommends cleaning not once every 12 months or even every 6 mo…

Yup. In fact, a great hack is to go to an inexperienced dentist instead of an experienced one for routine work. The reason is that dentists who are fresh out of school are competent enough to do basic cleanings and checkups. But they haven't yet had time to accrete the expensive habits, and the little business optimizations that feed them, that highly-paid professionals often develop. I generally switch dentists ever…

Here in Germany it is actually the really old dentists that can be trusted. They were not raised to think business oriented. Though most of them have have retired by now.

My old childhood dentist used to do the absolutely necessary. He just cared about keeping my teeth healthy and not putting me under unnecessary stress. He did not even remove my wisdom teeth. When he retired the new doc would simply maximize the amount of procedures. One routine checkup and he would find ten things that needed to be done.

What had changed? In Germany doctors used to be basically paid from a fixed budged. In 2007 there was a health care reform changing that. Now they would be paid for individual procedures. So obviously doctors would try to do as much profitable procedures as possibles.

The articles misses the target a bit, probably because health care in the US has been run like a business for much longer so it is harder to see the real issue: It is not cultural, it is not some dentists being shady and it can not be fixed by educating dentists. It it the natural result of the incentives that are in place.

If you try to run health care like a business you will necessarily and always produce these issues. And this is not dentist specific. Lot's of unnecessary but profitable surgeries are being performed as well.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#198
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I went for an initial screening to 3 different dentists and was shocked by the gap in suggested treatments. One wanted to do major work on like 11-12 teeth, another just fillings on 2. It made me lose all trust in American dentistry and I ended up going to get work done at a dental school instead because I knew it would be supervised by professors who are not optimizing for their bottom line.

Similar story. When I moved to the States (Oregon) for a few years, I had to hunt for a number of services, with dentistry being one of them. I worked for a pretty large SaaS private (at the time) company, so the perks were plentiful, but most importantly, private insurance was up there in terms of quality. Now, I'm originally from Canada, and without getting into the differences in healthcare between the two countri…

> I'm originally from Canada, and without getting into the differences in healthcare between the two countries

I mean, on paper, there isn’t much of a difference between the two countries when it comes to dentistry.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#199
I have been fortunate to have had an excellent dentist in Japan.

About a year ago, I was told by a dentist (in a larger clinic) I needed to have gold filling in my molars (because gold is least reactive, better than ceramic and gets the dentist a pretty penny). I was quoted ~$500 after the insurance. Also suggested was some SMILE UV procedure to whiten the enamel. I was reluctant as well as mortified. The whole convincing act sounded more like a sales pitch. I went to a second dentist, who runs his own singularly run establishment (the current one in question) and he flatly told me 'no'. My teeth were in good shape mostly (minus some coffee stains & a cavity). Since it was about closing time, he sat me down over a quick bite & went through the dental physiology - and why he considered it pointless. In the end, he added since I was on insurance I had nothing much to lose monetarily, but by doing Dentist A's suggestions, I was primed to keep visiting every few years for fixes. He had nothing to gain by turning me away. That was a huge confidence booster. Honesty was a huge factor in getting my trust.

It opened my eyes to the fact that the vaunted & strictly regulated Japanese health care has its share of bad apples too. Dental treatment is a money spinner even in Japan. Although, mostly operating assiduously and in good faith, we need to still look out for some bad actors. (I have another terrible story - but it pertains to opthalmologists)

Bonus: Since he turned out such a nice guy I get him souvenir candies (ironic!) from wherever I go traveling. And he cauterizes my sporadic canker mouth sores without ever charging a dime :)

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#200
My father is a periodontist turned attorney. AFAIK, he actually started the specialty of dental malpractice. I grew up seeing a lot of destroyed mouths and people suffering.

I’ve learned from him that over treatment and bad quality work is shockingly common. Part of the reason is how dentistry is taught in this country: people take out very expensive loans for dental school, so they want to start practicing right away while also over-treating to pay down loans. It used to be cheaper and people would apprentice — that is now rare. You see this in medicine too where they pack as many people as possible into a day, who cares if the quality is low per person.

The vast majority of dentists he sues are general dentists. They often don’t have the training and/or equipment to do surgery, and it results in things like drilling into nerves which cannot be undone. A lifetime of burning pain is the consequence. Again: no undo.

My best advice is to always see a specialist, even for a teeth cleaning. They have additional schooling and demonstrate a desire to go deeper in the profession. Prosthodontists will do cleanings, and their inspection will be far more valuable than a general/family dentist. They’ll also know which specialists to send you to for various procedures and won’t attempt to do something outside of their training.

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