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Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

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Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#131

Throwaway because I run a large dental software company. Dentistry is practiced as a business focused on maximizing revenue. Dentists are routinely coached to deploy sales tactics to increase their treatment acceptance beyond what is needed. If you walk into a dental office, you need to protect yourself from being abused. A second opinion unfortunately puts you in the same position, but now with a new dentist who wil…

Is it just me or do dentists rarely if ever suggest that their adult patients change their diet to avoid dental caries? They probably still tell children "don't eat candy", but since I reached adulthood I don't think a dentist ever told me suggested that the reason I needed so many cavities drilled was because I was feeding bacteria in my mouth.

If my experience is as ubiquitous as I suspect, there seems to be a perverse incentive among dentists to allow adults to ruin their own teeth. It's convenient because most people know extremely little about dental health beyond brushing and flossing. A minor carie on the enamel doesn't necessarily progress further than surface damage, and in some cases can even be reversed. Instead of saving the patient time and money by waiting for further progression of a carie, many dentists see the tiniest surface divot as an opportunity to drill n' fill. A more appropriate response would be to suggest the patient eat an appropriate diet that doesn't feed carie-causing bacteria and to come back in 6 months to a year for a follow-up; if the carie is visibly worse, then now it's time to consider drilling.

In defense of dentists, I imagine so few adult patients are compliant with suggestions of lifestyle changes that they figure it's hopeless and they might as well be the ones to cash in on cavities rather than some other dentist. Everyone hates going to them and they know they can't win.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#132
post #91

Throwaway because I run a large dental software company. Dentistry is practiced as a business focused on maximizing revenue. Dentists are routinely coached to deploy sales tactics to increase their treatment acceptance beyond what is needed. If you walk into a dental office, you need to protect yourself from being abused. A second opinion unfortunately puts you in the same position, but now with a new dentist who wil…

I've gone to my current dentist for years and he's always extremely reluctant to even do fillings (last time he gave me a speech about how you can't replace what "God gave you" so you should just monitor it or so.) I think there are some dentists that legitimately care. EDIT: Mine is actually in a very wealthy neighborhood and the lady who runs the practice (I think that's how it works?) has a reputation for buying s…

Same, we have had the same dentist for over 15 years and I now drive across town to visit him. Trustworthy and reluctant to do any care unless required. Still tells me I need to floss.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#133

Throwaway because I run a large dental software company. Dentistry is practiced as a business focused on maximizing revenue. Dentists are routinely coached to deploy sales tactics to increase their treatment acceptance beyond what is needed. If you walk into a dental office, you need to protect yourself from being abused. A second opinion unfortunately puts you in the same position, but now with a new dentist who wil…

> The business of dentistry is unfortunately antithetical to conservative treatment, which is almost always in the interest of the patient, because it results in significantly lower patient lifetime value.

Isn't this the case with other healthcare providers too, and not necessarily just dentists? For example, physicians will regularly make you wait at least 15 minutes—even in an empty office—so they can bill insurance for that extra time. They'll bill patients for "emotional/grief counseling" and lots of other unrelated charge codes as well. I've seen from firsthand experience how doctors will exploit patients and try to milk as much money as they can from them, rather than prioritizing their wellbeing and health.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#134
I went to a new dentist over a decade ago, and he wanted to cap 4 of my teeth, because he said they were stained, and he said it probably meant there was a cavity underneath. I changed dentists immediately. I’ve still never had a cavity.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#136
Ah this article put the finger on why I don't trust my 'new dentist':

The operation is just too slick from a business POV. As someone familiar with SaaS or in general this kind of recurring business model, you can sense all the little operational policies and procedures designed to increase your LTV.

It's a well-oiled machine. Without fail, the hygienist recommends cleaning not once every 12 months or even every 6 months, but every 3 months. When pressed on why, eventually they'll admit it's how nice it feels to have clean teeth and how important your smile is - but NOT strictly necessary for health.

This particular dentist also will shut down and take their entire staff to a resort for a week every winter if the team "hit their targets" for the prior year. That's the literal phrase they used to explain the trip. When I asked what those targets were, the person turned bright red.

So dentistry has a trifecta of factors that will encourage dark-patterns: (1) a true health-related reason for going both preventatively and to deal with problems; (2) a cosmetic / vanity-related reason (white teeth), and (3) the air of higher-educated medical authority.

Wrap that all in a lucrative recurring business model and of course it's going to lead to people taking advantage or at least overpaying for what they really need.

Just writing all this out made me realize I shouldn't be going to my current dentist! Thanks OP. :)

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#137
Near the beginning of the pandemic, I had a pretty bad toothache spring up out of basically nowhere. Bad enough that sleeping was difficult and eating was impossible. I went to see a dental surgeon (I forget the proper name for this) and he told me I needed a root canal, and backed it up with X-rays. It made sense, I had trouble with this tooth before and a previous dentist told me that a root canal and crown on this tooth, while not strictly necessary at the time, would probably have to be done eventually.

The root canal itself was quick, relatively painless, and not super expensive after insurance. But he couldn't do a crown, apparently that's only a dentist thing. Since my previous dentist closed his office, I asked for a recommendation and he gave me a referral.

The referred dentist did the crown just fine but the price gave me sticker shock: about 4x as much as the root canal itself, after insurance! It basically wiped out my HSA account for the year. When I went back for a general checkup and cleaning, the same dentist said they found SEVEN cavities. Which was a little mind-blowing since in the decade previous, my old dentist only filled ONE cavity and always complimented me on the state of my teeth.

I asked how much it would cost out-of-pocket to address the cavities and they gave a number somewhat north of $200. Oh, that's not so bad to have a bunch of cavities filled. Oh sorry, nope, that's the price PER CAVITY. I asked what I was doing wrong because I _had_ been flossing and brushing every day and got a very hand-wavy answer. I was in a literal state of shock so made an excuse about my schedule being full for the next couple weeks and beat a hasty retreat. After the root canal and crown, I literally couldn't afford to have seven cavities filled.

Fast forward a year and I finally find another dentist for a cleaning and evaluation and to tackle at least the worst of those seven cavities. You want to know how many cavities he found? None. None at all.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#138
Part of the problem is that dentists don't have the incentive nor arguably the training and knowledge to cure the problem. Cavities and lost teeth, brings them money. So don't expect them to be looking around for cures like regrowing teeth or reversing cavities, unless some unusual "one in a several billion" fellow comes along (who the others won't like) to change things (like how we got Penicillin or the cure for Polio). A lot of dentists would rather your teeth rot, so you need to pay them, or you make continual monthly payments to them.

The biggest innovation in the last 50 years are titanium dental implants (very expensive) and the use of ceramic and acrylic (more expensive) over the insane amalgam fillings with mercury. And yet, many dentists still put the health hazard of amalgam with mercury in people's mouths (like it's a tradition) or do root canals which keep dead toxic teeth in mouths too. If you want less toxic options, then you must pay for much more expensive procedures.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I come from a family of dentists and they are very hesitant to drill unless absolutely necessary. Their rationale as I understand it is that all fillings, crowns, bridges, etc fail eventually. That anytime you attach something to a tooth you add a failure point and potential for infection. The problem is their businesses can’t compete with the ones that play the insurance game. Insurance reimbursement rates hav…

> Maybe the HN crowd wisdom has some ideas on how we can improve this situation. HMO / Capitation dentistry is the obvious answer here, where your dentist gets paid X per patient per year, to focus on preventive instead of pushing unnecessary care. It’s really hard to implement in the US though because people push for a lot of unnecessary stuff.

>It’s really hard to implement in the US though because people push for a lot of unnecessary stuff.

"Unnecessary" is in the eye of the beholder to a certain degree. Extracting a molar is pretty cheap. Root canals, implants, and crowns much less so. But, depending upon the circumstances, more expensive procedures may make sense.

Re: Dentistry is less scientific and more gratuitous than people think (2019)

#140

Throwaway because I run a large dental software company. Dentistry is practiced as a business focused on maximizing revenue. Dentists are routinely coached to deploy sales tactics to increase their treatment acceptance beyond what is needed. If you walk into a dental office, you need to protect yourself from being abused. A second opinion unfortunately puts you in the same position, but now with a new dentist who wil…

If this is really how you feel shouldn’t you get out of dentistry saas and find something you believe isn’t hurting society?
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