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The integrated timetable of Switzerland

jokteur.com

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Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#91

Post by misja111 »

runeks wrote: post #62
config_yml wrote: post #20

Man it costs a lot of money to maintain this, but Switzerland will continue to invest heavily into rail service, backed by the public: https://www.bav.admin.ch/bav/en/home/modes-of-transport/rail... One project I find pretty cool is the 4 track expansion via tunnel under and through an existing village: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi2rmEl8ULA

> Man it costs a lot of money to maintain this, but Switzerland will continue to invest heavily into rail service, backed by the public: https://www.bav.admin.ch/bav/en/home/modes-of-transport/rail ... Isn’t it paid for through ticket fees? Or is it subsidized by the state?

The Swiss rail company, SBB, is owned by the state. In 2021 it made a loss of 325 million CHF, which is about 3.3% of its total turnover. So it's paid mostly through ticket fees and for a small part by the state.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#92

Post by misja111 »

Stevvo wrote: post #48
CaptainZapp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another Swiss here. Brutally expensive? Sure, when you look at full fare tickets. Since every Swiss, who uses public transport owns a half fare card those prices are (mostly) halfed, though. When it comes to commuter travel prices become outright reasonable. The best deal, if you use the train for a regular commute intercity is the Generalabonnement[0]. ca. $4000 (6500 for first class) for a year of unrestricted trav…

However you look at, it's brutality expensive. It's nearly always cheaper to drive.

I'm from the Netherlands, living in Switzerland, and public transport prices in both countries are roughly the same. But other prices + salaries in CH are almost double the ones in NL. Also, punctuality, cleanliness and sitting space in Swiss trains is much better.

So at least comparing to NL, public transport in CH is brutally cheap.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#93

Post by ClumsyPilot »

iso1631 wrote: post #77
gmac wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t consider £25 each way Manchester-London to be brutally expensive to be honest I think you're citing pretty much a best case there. I just put in the same journey on a morning next week and got £150 each way, which I suspect is still not the worst case. Before the pandemic, my wife used to pay about £5K/year for a London - Brighton season ticket (a distance of about 50 miles). Possibly the most infuriating t…

£25 each way is a walk up fare, you just need to take the slightly slower train (which is still faster than the car and about the same speed it was in the 90s), arriving in London about 1030. Peak time commuting tickets are likewise a bargain. Brighton-London for £5,300 5 times a day 50 weeks a year at 65 miles each way is 32,500 miles, or 16p per mile. For a car doing 45mpg that will cost you £6,300 in fuel alone, l…

The car will carry 4 people and luggage. So if you consider car pooling, or you need to be in office 3 times a week, it's not a good deal. Or your car is electric. Even for a couple, a car makes economic sence.

Also consider comfort - have you see how crowded those trains get, sometimes you might have to stand for hours on a long distance train. If you are able bodied man thats one thing, but if you are pregnant or injured, that's tought.

They are not suppose to be close.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#94

Post by Ma8ee »

jeromegv wrote: post #74
londons_explore wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that every infrastructure project tries to make a measure of the total economic gain of said project. Getting people around quicker is part of that (many models use a cost-per-hour for citizen time on the train). More efficient connections are part of travel time, and a simulation of a large number of potential journeys on some proposed infrastructure would show that. That means that when government is conside…

They do this for transit projects in Toronto. They calculate the total infrastructure + operational cost of the project over 60 years then compare it with the estimated economical benefits of having this project. They still ended up approving many negative projects, even while there were other cheaper/better located transit projects with more benefits. The political cost of cancelling those projects was higher (ex: M…

When you do this kind of estimates, in particular when the time scale is many decades, the outcome depends on way to many assumptions and other projections to even a little reliable. I still think it is useful exercises, but it is certainly legitimate to use it as only one of many variables in the decision making process.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#95

Post by lasftew »

prmoustache wrote: post #80
pera wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any alternative to this? Because that's about 4 times the price of the normal monthly local bus pass in the US and the UK. Most people don't need to travel around the country, they just need to commute to their jobs.

Yes you can only have the smaller passes. But taking the GA is really convenient. You just enter every public transport without thinking about buying a ticket. I had a general abo for years and decided against renewing it when I moved to a job 3min of biking distance from home, I missed it dearly despite owning a car. You are drunk after a late night. Some sort of public transport will bring you home. You want to do…

That's all correct. In addition, you can get almost the same convencience without purchasing an expensive GA by using the EasyRide feature [1]. No more worrying about buying and choosing the right ticket.

[1] https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/mobile-apps/sbb-mobile/easyr...

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#96

Post by throwaway2412 »

chinathrow wrote: post #75
Youden wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on a lot of factors. If you live in or around Zürich for example, the median price just to rent a parking space is CHF 200/month, or CHF 2400/yr. For comparison, an adult GA is CHF 3860/yr, so paying for a parking space in Zürich alone puts you 2/3rd of the way to the cost of public transportation, even disregarding costs like insurance, the car itself, registration, vignette, fuel, vehicle maintenance,…

Where did you get the price figure for a parking space in Zürich? It's CHF 300 per year in a blue zone where you have to find a spot whenever you feel like parking your car.

I pay 250 / month for a parking space in an underground garage. That's close to the upper limit from what I've seen. Usually, the prices start around 100-150 for a dedicated parking spot outside.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#97

Post by kenneth »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #23
immmmmm wrote: post #2

Swiss here. Amazing system, using it everyday. Brutally expensive tickets tho.

Another Swiss here. Brutally expensive? Sure, when you look at full fare tickets. Since every Swiss, who uses public transport owns a half fare card those prices are (mostly) halfed, though. When it comes to commuter travel prices become outright reasonable. The best deal, if you use the train for a regular commute intercity is the Generalabonnement[0]. ca. $4000 (6500 for first class) for a year of unrestricted trav…

Swiss expat living abroad. I'm in Switzerland just enough every year to feel the pain of the full fare tickets, and yet not enough to justify the cost of the half-fare card. I live in Asia, but I'm often flying in and out of Switzerland from short hops around Europe, and it's rather shocking and sad to pay far more for the train home from the Airport than my flight cost, almost every single time.

Also then I do fly in long haul, I usually have the choice of a $100 train ride from Zürich or a far cheaper connecting flight to GVA followed by a $30 train. I would much rather take the train from ZRH but it's almost always cheaper to fly.

Switzerland's public transit system is absolutely amazing and I use it anytime I'm in Switzerland — but we have to admit it's one of the most expensive in the world.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#98

Post by lasftew »

archerx wrote: post #37
jokteur wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you get with averages: you may have lots of problems on one particular line, but compared to the sheer numbers of daily trains in Switzerland that are on time, it doesn't change the average so much.

The same train almost everyday for over a year? I'm sorry but the CFF loves smelling their own farts talking about how great they are but let's be honest here the Romandie part gets treated like a second class citizen. The trains are dirty, I remember seeing the same goop and grime on an inside train wall for over a month (I'm very consistent with my train timing so I ended up mostly taking the same train). The train…

> second class citizen

As far as I know, investments in particular in local and regional trains is heavily driven by cantonal investments. For example ZVV (Zürcher Verkehrsverbund) contracts the S-Bahn network from SBB and finances a good part of its operations. While Zurich's network is therefore quite excelent, I am not sure other cantons invest at similar levels and therefore enjoy a worse experience.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#99

Post by xenonite »

ls15 wrote: post #71
tauchunfall wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here, who traveled a lot through Switzerland. I find it even more amazing that there are more people who have a Generalabonnement than a Bahncard 100 (the German equivalent which is a bit cheaper). [1] Commuting between Fribourg and Zurich was always great, even when there were only circa five minutes to change trains in Bern. It's so efficient, I always catched my train in Bern. [1] >2019: 500'000 Exemplare d…

> I find it even more amazing that there are more people who have a Generalabonnement than a Bahncard 100 (the German equivalent which is a bit cheaper). GA costs about 50% of a typical monthly Swiss salary. BC100 costs about 100% of a typical monthly German salary.

Germany has a 8.7 times larger area, and a 7.4 times longer rail network though.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#100

Post by bombcar »

Ma8ee wrote: post #94
jeromegv wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do this for transit projects in Toronto. They calculate the total infrastructure + operational cost of the project over 60 years then compare it with the estimated economical benefits of having this project. They still ended up approving many negative projects, even while there were other cheaper/better located transit projects with more benefits. The political cost of cancelling those projects was higher (ex: M…

When you do this kind of estimates, in particular when the time scale is many decades, the outcome depends on way to many assumptions and other projections to even a little reliable. I still think it is useful exercises, but it is certainly legitimate to use it as only one of many variables in the decision making process.

I spent a large amount of time years ago reading the LOSSAN reports [95] and it would have been interesting to see things noted as "for certain will help" and "most likely will help" etc. Many of the improvements were things like "double track this single-track section between two double-tracked ones" which would almost certainly help; others were things like bridge replacements which wouldn't necessarily help but would prevent maintenance issues in the future, to things like station improvements which would only really help travel times if travel volumes got above a certain amount.

For example, this project: https://www.octa.net/LOSSAN-Rail-Corridor-Agency/Central-Coa... doesn't really change average transit times, but would allow two or three trains to "start" each day at the farthest north.

Of course US passenger rail is in such a state that there's almost always very obvious low-hanging fruit.

[95]: https://www.octa.net/LOSSAN-Rail-Corridor-Agency/Overview/

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