Stolperstein • Hacker News Board

Re: Stolperstein

#81

Post by boffinAudio » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:21 AM UTC

noneeeed wrote: post #78

smcl wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to…

Likewise. I get very frustrated by all the people who will refuse to acknowledge that our ancestors did some atrocious things to people. People will just through some extrodinary hoops to rationalise why it either wasn't so terrible, or it was somehow justified in a way that other people's atrocities were not.

As an Australian, visiting Mauthausen - or indeed any of the preserved concentration camps of the past - was particularly humbling. It really highlighted to me that a society that gets honest with itself, improves - and those who don't, just continue to commit the same atrocities.

We Australians don't have the courage that Austrians do, when it comes to acknowledging the criminal actions of our past society. Alas, the struggle for acknowledgement is real. A lot of it has to do with the fact that Australias concentration camps and genocide programs were performed in seriously remote locations, far far away from any civil population - so its a lot easier to hide.

The camp at Mauthausen can be seen from the local countryside and is clearly maintained to be a visible reminder of extremist totalitarian/authoritarianism to the children who visit it, regularly, as part of their education. That courage is something for which the Austrian people should be proud.

Re: Stolperstein

#82

Post by kome » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:24 AM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #76

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

I was living in Budapest in a house marked with one of the plaques, and I never had a similar thought. What's the mental process that makes you uneasy with them?

Very interesting, but puzzling comment. It reality makes me understand how reality can be perceived in wildly different ways. Thank you for it.

Re: Stolperstein

#83

Post by fnordpiglet » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:24 AM UTC

tpoacher wrote: post #77

Klaster_1 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea to put a bit more info about the person was brilliant, even a single sentence makes you relate more. There is a similar project in Russia called The Last Address [1], I see these a lot (but probably not enough) in the Saint-Petersburg historical center, and although being a similar age and area of expertise to lots of victims helps, even a brief summary of their "wrongdoings" would go a long way enriching th…

I always thought that a firstperson shooter game where whenever you killed a mook you'd get a quick flashback of that person's life would have been a super interesting concept. Especially if it was a Call of Duty like game, rather than a game where you could choose to avoid killing.

This happens in Divinity 2 as an elf. If you eat the body of someone you flash back into their life.

Re: Stolperstein

#84

Post by tokai » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:24 AM UTC

hans1729 wrote: post #80

robert_foss wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why being reminded of the horrors of the past would make you feel guilty.

"Why does confrontation with horror make you feel uneasy?" ...

guilty != uneasy

Don't argue like that. It is very disingenuous.

Re: Stolperstein

#85

Post by fnordpiglet » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:26 AM UTC

robert_foss wrote: post #79

Freak_NL wrote: post #76

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

I'm not sure why being reminded of the horrors of the past would make you feel guilty.

Survivors guilt can be severely debilitating for some people.

I can also see folks who are severely depressed, bipolar, or other conditions that involve irrationally strong responses to negative stimulus would be impacted by a constant reminder of horror.

I think I agree with the author here - I don’t know I would appreciate my home being marked as the site of an atrocity. Our homes are for the living and the future. It’s good to be aware, and I’m not diminishing the tragedy or the need to keep the memory of it alive to prevent it happening again and to remember the victims. But it feels an awful lot like turning your community into a cemetery, instead of having a cemetery for your community.

Re: Stolperstein

#86

Post by kome » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:26 AM UTC

hans1729 wrote: post #80

robert_foss wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why being reminded of the horrors of the past would make you feel guilty.

"Why does confrontation with horror make you feel uneasy?" ...

ok, but so what? sometimes memory has to be painful, it means it feels real, alive. public spaces are naturally a container of public memory, traumas, joy etc.

it makes me feel connected with the history of the place, i don't see it as an "affront". And affront to whom??

Re: Stolperstein

#87

Post by synu » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:27 AM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #76

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

I assume what you’re feeling is true but it’s a pretty unusual read on the memorial and I’m sure you’re right it is not a popular way to look at it. I suspect that’s why some people jump to assuming there’s some kind of secret agenda - actual anti-Semites use those sorts of arguments as well because they know they can’t say what they really think, and they are surely more common than people who feel guilty about living when forced to see memorials.

Re: Stolperstein

#88

Post by synu » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:29 AM UTC

tokai wrote: post #84

hans1729 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why does confrontation with horror make you feel uneasy?" ...

guilty != uneasy Don't argue like that. It is very disingenuous.

As a meta comment, this sort of verbal judo to put words in peoples mouths is really becoming common. Whenever I see a comment start with something like “It sounds like you are saying” I know I’m in for a wild ride.

Re: Stolperstein

#89

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:30 AM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #76

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

I have three stones in front of my house. I clean them once a year. They do not bother me.

Personally, I don't quite "get" why other Germans seem to personally suffer under the weight of the county's history. I was born in the 1980s, it is obvious that I am not "guilty", but I have no problem feeling responsible to keep the memory alive.

In fact, any reasonable observer will notice that admitting guilt, in the hardest possible terms, has been exceptionally good strategy for the country. Except for the British, and some, but few, Israeli jews, people tend to be impressed with the postwar behavior of the country. Any remnants of fear proved useful to "force" Germany into the Euro and get it of military engagements, although the latter has somewhat stopped.

So whenever I see Turkey, or Hungary, or, to some degree, Austria, trying to deny their respective genocides and/or participation in the Holocaust, it just feels exceptionally stupid! Everybody knows of the Turkish genocide against the Armenians. Denying it is silly and just keeps it alive. Build monuments honoring those you have harmed and the world will love you for it.

(if, that is, you also stop harming more people! wtf is wrong with you? It's not like land is worth anything, these days, or you-know-who would obviously not need more of it).

Re: Stolperstein

#90

Post by Freak_NL » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

robert_foss wrote: post #79

Freak_NL wrote: post #76

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

I'm not sure why being reminded of the horrors of the past would make you feel guilty.

There have been a few cases in the media; though not necessarily focused on feelings of guilt. One couple in Amsterdam¹ lost their child and suffered a strong emotional response whenever people outside would gawk at their house with a solemn look after encountering the Stolperstein placed in the pavement there (they were branded neo-Nazis on social media for daring to speak out).

1: https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/echtpaar-staakt...