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Consciousness is not computation

joe-antognini.github.io

301–310 of 767 posts

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#301
post #276
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are conscious, and so is the combination of iron bar and crazy complex mapping. In the latter case, the crazy complex mapping does all the work and in some sense _is_ conscious.

Right, if you were to compute the mapping in real time on a computer, that would be conscious but it's really got nothing to do with the actual iron bar.

Scott Aaronson (if memory serves right) had an interesting take on this. He framed his thought in terms of the Turing test, but the argument would apply equally well to the mapped iron bar:

In theory, we could pass any Turing test of finite duration (eg an hour or less) and run in a chat room with finite bandwidth with a giant lookup table. Just look up the entire past of the conversation to see what answer should be given. The lookup can be implemented trivially on any Turing machine (and doesn't even need the machine's full power).

Now there's multiple directions you could take this. Here's Scott with one of them:

> Briefly, Searle proposed a thought experiment—the details don’t concern us here—purporting to show that a computer program could pass the Turing Test, even though the program manifestly lacked anything that a reasonable person would call “intelligence” or “understanding.” (Indeed, Searle argues that no physical system can understand anything “purely by virtue of” the computations that it implements.) In response, many critics said that Searle’s argument was deeply misleading, because it implicitly encouraged us to imagine a computer program that was simplistic in its internal operations—something like the giant lookup table described in Section 4.1. And while it was true, the critics went on, that a giant lookup table wouldn’t “truly understand” its responses, that point is also irrelevant. For the giant lookup table is a philosophical fiction anyway: something that can’t even fit in the observable universe! If we instead imagine a compact, efficient computer program passing the Turing Test, then the situation changes drastically. For now, in order to explain how the program can be so compact and efficient, we’ll need to posit that the program includes representations of abstract concepts, capacities for learning and reasoning, and all sorts of other internal furniture that we would expect to find in a mind.

> Personally, I find this response to Searle extremely interesting—since if correct, it suggests that the distinction between polynomial and exponential complexity has metaphysical significance. According to this response, an exponential-sized lookup table that passed the Turing Test would not be sentient (or conscious, intelligent, self-aware, etc.), but a polynomially-bounded program with exactly the same input/output behavior would be sentient. Furthermore, the latter program would be sentient because it was polynomially-bounded.

See 'The Lookup-Table Argument' in https://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/philos.pdf for the rest. It's all very fascinating.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Computation does not have anything essential to it that makes it different from other "atoms jumping around" other than it produces outputs that we find interesting. This is not true. Computing is a system where the physical hardware (the computer) is following rules that are explicitly encoded in itself - you can analyze the system and discover where and how the program it is following is encoded (as we did with D…

How do you know the rules of physics aren't encoded anywhere? Clearly they have to be defined somewhere - or at least somehow - or they wouldn't be rules. They may not defined anywhere we can access, never mind change. But that's a different problem.

You're paraphrasing the last paragraph of the parent.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#303
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I adhere to the duck-typing theory of conciousness. If I walks, talks and acts like concious being, then it doesn’t particularly matter to me how that comes about (e.g. the opposite of the chinese room argument). If someone is following a ‘program’ for responding to Chinese characters, that’s as good as speaking Chinese since there is no distinguishable difference.

This exactly. Thank you for putting into words why I always thought the Chinese Room though experiment was absolute garbage. If two thing cannot possibly be observed to be different then they are the same.

So a tree falling in a forest with noone around to hear doesn't make a sound?

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#304

I have questions but first with a premise. Atoms configured in a certain way produce the rich behavior of awareness and agency that we can observe in humans and other animals. This awareness and agency seems similar enough to our own behavior that we associate our internal experience to be similar as well. This internal experience we assume exists can be called "consciousness". Based on the above definition of consci…

>> it seems reasonable to assume that one day, we could arrange atoms in a specific way to produce consciousness from an atom-based computer system. There is no evidence for this. It does not seem reasonable to me at all. Internal dialog is not consciousness. Many of the people who discuss consciousness at length do not need or simply do not engage in any internal dialog at all. We will never 'build' consciousness. I…

> There is no evidence for this.

It's a little unreasonable to expect a speculative statement about what might happen in the future to have evidence at the present time.

> We will never 'build' consciousness. It is not possible. Consciousness comes from a source outside of our realm of experience as a gift. It does not come from the micro or small things (though it is entwined with them and everything), but from the macro, that which is above all.

And yet there is even less evidence of any of this.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#305
Defining this word must be one of the favorite exercises on HN. Imo, consciousness is just perception: that's the literal meaning of this word in sanskrit and that's the implied meaning in how we use it - unconscious means "cannot perceive anything". When applied to AI, consciousness would mean an array of sensors connected to some memory block where sensory input become 0s and 1s. Traditional types of consciousness register things from outside, but we can think of an internal consciousness that observes internal events. Perhaps, when some of the sensory inputs observe outputs of the processing unit, that's self consciousness. But even self-consciosness doesn't imply intelligence - the latter is about prediction and cause-result relationships.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#306
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether there was ever a good reason to suggest that mind is computational, and I think philosophy (i.e. Searle) have shown that there wasn’t. A brain CAN compute (albeit very slowly), but that’s the end of the similarities. The reason it’s not morally wrong, say, to recycle an old computer is that computers are not at all like human minds.

Alas, if you refer to Searle's Chinese Room, that hasn't shown anything, if you just bite the bullet and accept that the Room is conscious.

I like Scott Aaronson's response[1] to the argument:

> So, class, how might a strong AI proponent respond to this argument? Duh: you might not understand Chinese, but the rule book does! Or if you like, understanding Chinese is an emergent property of the system consisting of you and the rule book, in the same sense that understanding English is an emergent property of the neurons in your brain. Like many other thought experiments, the Chinese Room gets its mileage from a deceptive choice of imagery -- and more to the point, from ignoring computational complexity. We're invited to imagine someone pushing around slips of paper with zero understanding or insight -- much like the doofus freshmen who write (a+b)^2=a^2+b^2 on their math tests. But how many slips of paper are we talking about? How big would the rule book have to be, and how quickly would you have to consult it, to carry out an intelligent Chinese conversation in anything resembling real time? If each page of the rule book corresponded to one neuron of (say) Debbie's brain, then probably we'd be talking about a "rule book" at least the size of the Earth, its pages searchable by a swarm of robots traveling at close to the speed of light. When you put it that way, maybe it's not so hard to imagine that this enormous Chinese-speaking entity -- this dian nao -- that we've brought into being might have something we'd be prepared to call understanding or insight.

[1]: https://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec4.html

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#307
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proving a negative is not always possible, but the irreducible randomness in quantum measurement or "wave function collapse" is essentially defined as uncomputable. You can of course simulate quantum randomness using an RNG or some such but the essential inherent unpredictability can't be simulated like that. To be clear, I'm not trying to argue that quantum randomness is a component of consciousness! Regards conscio…

>"wave function collapse" is essentially defined as uncomputable. Maybe uncomputable using a macbook pro or classical computer, yes (I accept this for the sake of argument)... But that doesn't make it "not a computation" fundamentally. In other words, it's not super clear and obvious that quantum mechanics is not fundamentally computational. We are trying to build quantum computers which take advantage of some intere…

> the presence of randomness does not necessarily preclude something from being computational in nature

In the case of single events, it does preclude something from being computational in nature, if you take unpredictability as the hallmark of randomness.

Predictability and repeatability are built in to computation and built out of randomness, as it were.

In one stringent definition of randomness (that of algorithmic information theory) it is literally defined by reference to its uncomputability.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#308
Is Searle's Chinese Room still considered a state-of-the-art philosophical argument? If so, that's very disappointing. It's old! I would have hoped things had moved on a bit. And more importantly, it's not very productive; it claims to rule out certain hypotheses (very unconvincingly, I'd say) but doesn't give any useful steer on new directions that might be worth pursuing.

(Edit to add: I consider this post equivalent to Searle's argument as I don't see any significant new material, except possibly a stated assumption that "consciousness does not require an external observer".)

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#309
post #243

> But! If a single observer can correctly determine that the bar of iron is conscious, we must conclude that the bar of iron is conscious for everybody, because consciousness is observer independent. If true, honest-to-God consciousness is just a matter of running consciousness.exe, we have indeed found someone who has correctly observed that the bar of iron is running consciousness.exe and we must conclude that the…

You don't need to know all that much in order to achieve consciousness. Lets say that you have a program that you assume to be conscious. You run it for 1 second, and exactly record all its internal states and outputs. Now, you can find an interpretation of the iron bar that shows that the iron bar casually and deterministically went through those exact same states for a full 1 second. What is the difference between…

> Now, you can find an interpretation of the iron bar that shows that the iron bar casually and deterministically went through those exact same states for a full 1 second. What is the difference between those two situations? Why would the program be conscious but the iron bar would not be?

Let's say you find an interpretation that perfectly matches 1 second of calculation, after searching an exponential bazillion states.

Then you decide to test the next second, to see if it's the real deal.

Oh, it always fails, with certainty 1 - 1 / [exponential bazillion].

Even if you had perfect random noise you could always find an interpretation to XOR with it and "find" any target you're searching for.

Even if you had flat 0000000..., you could always find an interpretation to XOR with it and "find" any target you're searching for.

The problem is that you actually did the computation when you were finding the "interpretation". Whatever value the rock had becomes irrelevant in a search process like this. The rock isn't doing the computation.

Just like in the library of babel, where the book doesn't have the information, the location of the book has the information.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#310
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument seems to be that beyond a certain level of complexity you'll somehow automatically get consciousness. Clearly it's unlikely this is a hard cut off. Adding one more byte of RAM, expanding the CPU from 64 to 128-bit words, or adding another dimension to a neural network isn't going to do it. But if consciousness emergent, how do you measure the amount of consciousness? Because the experience is subjective,…

>beyond a certain level of complexity you'll somehow automatically get consciousness Right, that's the argument, but I don't believe this at all. Consciousness is a computation therefore all computations are conscious. That doesn't follow. In any other philosophical or scientific discourse that sort of naive conceptual inversion would be laughed out of the room. Horses are animals therefore animals are all horses. It…

You could execute a loop that reflects on an internal model using pen and paper. Is that system conscious? Imagine only one computational step of that loop happening everyday. Does qualia arise from that? What is detecting that that one step is part of a larger series of steps that can be considered a computation? What provides the continuity?

This is why the strange loop idea implemented using traditional computation doesn't make sense to me.

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