Consciousness is not computation • Hacker News Board

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#91

Post by fouronnes3 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:37 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #82

n8cpdx wrote: post #3

I think people start with the premise that consciousness is a specific “thing”, that it is unique and special to humans (and maybe dogs because we like them but definitely not spiders and flies because we don’t) and then try to work backwards to define it in some ways that keeps it special. I don’t think consciousness is so specific, and I think people aren’t clear about how they think about it as something separate…

I think I adhere to the duck-typing theory of conciousness. If I walks, talks and acts like concious being, then it doesn’t particularly matter to me how that comes about (e.g. the opposite of the chinese room argument). If someone is following a ‘program’ for responding to Chinese characters, that’s as good as speaking Chinese since there is no distinguishable difference.

This exactly. Thank you for putting into words why I always thought the Chinese Room though experiment was absolute garbage. If two thing cannot possibly be observed to be different then they are the same.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#92

Post by whoisjuan » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:38 AM UTC

The author suggests that split brain surgery causes “two consciousness” but this is simply not true.

Split brain patients seem to have two separate executive functions but they still describe their subjective experience as a single observer.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#93

Post by nobody9999 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:38 AM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #73

trts wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My personal experience is that consciousness, like free will, is a useful illusion It is probably just a difference in semantics but for me, it seems like consciousness is the only thing that is assuredly not an illusion. That I am having a subjective experience is undeniable. The objects of my consciousness all might be (and probably are) something else than they appear to be (as is often the experience with diffe…

> That I am having a subjective experience is undeniable. If you wanted to go about proving (even to yourself) that you are not, say, an extremely advanced ML algorithm running on a system that provided synthetic inputs in the form of your senses, how would you go about it? Further, how would you go about proving to someone who doubted your subjective experience was real if they doubted it? Say, if they believed they…

>> That I am having a subjective experience is undeniable.

>If you wanted to go about proving (even to yourself) that you are not, say, an extremely advanced ML algorithm running on a system that provided synthetic inputs in the form of your senses, how would you go about it?

Not GP, but I too have come to the conclusion that I'm having a subjective experience.

Let's assume that I am "an extremely advanced ML algorithm running on a system that provided synthetic inputs in the form of your senses."

I'm still having a subjective experience over here -- even if it's not a "real" (whatever that means) one.

>To me, if it were "undeniable" these would be much easier things to do.

And that's your subjective experience. Welcome, friend.

Edit: Fixed typo.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#94

Post by epgui » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:41 AM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #88

Gwarzo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a little bit of an emotional take I think. The burden of proof is on the claim that you can get there through computation, not otherwise. We do not understand the fundamental reality of consciousness, this does not mean that consciousness is magic. The assertion that you cannot get there from computation implies there is a currently non understood yet essential piece of physics(I assume, but I do not know) wh…

> The assertion that you cannot get there from computation implies there is a currently non understood yet essential piece of physics(I assume, but I do not know) which doesn't fall under "computation" This conflates "computation" with "physics". I think even the OP doesn't do that, since it allows for the possibility that non-computational physical processes could lead to consciousness, even derived from computation…

Just for clarity, I consider to be “computation” any physical process which involves information.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#95

Post by tsimionescu » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:41 AM UTC

3g4o53g4o5 wrote: post #43

i_like_apis wrote: post #16

The author's "triviality argument" doesn't hold up: > 1. To say that a physical system is a computer requires an external observer to map the physical states of that system onto the abstract states of a Turing machine. > 2. Consciousness does not require an external observer to exist. > 3. Therefore, consciousness cannot be reduced to computation. A physical system may be a computer regardless of whether it is verifi…

True. Quantum behavior is computing linear algebra ever since the Big Bang, and we came accross to discover this fact 15e9 years later.

That's not a good example, as it's very hard to call particles following the laws of physics "a computation" - what would be the computer in this case? What is the program?

A much better example is the machinery inside every living cell that is interpreting the DNA or RNA to produce certain proteins - there, it's much clearer there is a computational process happening. Certain specific structures inside the nucleus are the computer, and the DNA molecule is the program they are following. We even know that you can change the program and get predictable, different behavior.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#96

Post by lewisjoe » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:41 AM UTC

Apart from a philosophical standpoint, I found even Roger Penrose (senior theoretical physicist who worked along with hawkings in the paper on black holes) - seems to share the same hypothesis: consciousness is not really a computational process.

His ideas are intriguing. Here's a video on his thoughts of consciousness https://youtu.be/Qi9ys2j1ncg

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#97

Post by smeagull » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:41 AM UTC

Summary of the Chinese Room argument:

1. Your brain consists of two parts: The neurons, and the electro-chemical signals that flow between them (or any other partitioning for which the next is true)

2. Neither the neurons nor the electro-chemical signals are conscious.

3. Therefore your brain is not conscious.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#98

Post by andai » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:43 AM UTC

Imnimo wrote: post #70

The argument presented that a hot bar of iron would qualify as conscious if consciousness is computation also concludes that a hot bar of iron qualifies as a computer. Do you believe that a hot bar of iron is a computer? If your answer is no, then it seems like the argument presented here should be not be at all convincing.

Stephen Wolfram's article "Alien Intelligence and the Concept of Technology"[0], posted a few days ago, touched on this, eg. the idea that a weather pattern "computes" its next state, ie. the weather in the next moment, and indeed exhibits very complex behavior while doing so. The hot iron bar is a simpler example but at the atomic scale the same principle applies.

The iron bar doesn't strike me as particularly conscious, except perhaps to the degree that elementary particles possess some rudimentary consciousness. (See "panpsychism", the idea that consciousness pervades all matter. Though lately, the reverse seems more likely to me—see Lex Fridman's interview of Donald Hoffman[1].)

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31781234

[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=h1LucGjqXp4

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#99

Post by 0xBABAD00C » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:43 AM UTC

We don't know of anything that is provably not computation. There's not a single proof that "process X is not reproducible computationally, yet it is implemented in the universe". All the statements like the one in the subject line are desires (conscious or unconscious) for special privilege for humans.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#100

Post by mrwh » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:46 AM UTC

Chalmers: Does a rock implement every finite state automation? http://consc.net/papers/rock.html

Meanwhile, Integrated Information Theory is a proposal to solve some of the issues about consciousness that the author raises (e.g. non-conscious cerebellum; two consciousness with split brain patients). Actually I thought the article was headed to IIT - then it stops.