Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets • Hacker News Board

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#161

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

vzqx wrote: post #84

thayne wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution for this is to have the donation system pool transactions together. Instead of a single transaction for each creator you donate to, you make a payment into a pool that you can then allocate funds from to various recipients. And instead of individual payments to recipients, you send a single lump sum once a month (or if perhaps less frequently if donations are sparse).

This is how Patreon already works - they pool both incoming and outgoing donations for the month into a single transaction to reduce fees. But there are a bunch of donors who only donate $1-$3 a month to a single creator, and these incoming transactions don't benefit from pooling.

This is how Patreon works when you're lucky.

They keep degrading the pooling and/or threatening to remove it entirely.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#162

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

Sebb767 wrote: post #113

arinlen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I think is something people easily overlook with Patreon and similar platforms is that it's quite hard to make a decent profit on $1 or $5 transactions that most of Patreon's income seems to come from. Nothing forces Patreon to take a cut for each and every donation, let alone such a hefty fee. Plenty of micropayment services charge instead a fee for transactions into and out of their system, and internal tran…

> Nothing forces Patreon to take a cut for each and every donation, let alone such a hefty fee. Payment processors do. Donorbox [0], which the author switched to, states their pricing. For 1$, you'll pay ~32p (Stripe)/ ~51p (PayPal) for the payment processor, so 32%-51%. For 5$, you'll pay ~40p (Stripe) or 59p (PayPal), so still 8%-12%. This is without Patreon/Donorbox having made a single dollar yet, but they do nee…

Paypal lets you do micropayment charges for 5 cents plus 5%, and I've seen other services claim to have similar numbers.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#163

Post by abnercoimbre » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #80

maxshadurskiy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s assume random website use Stripe checkout or PayPal to process cards. Will you fell better and safe to type in your bank card?

It’s about convenience and removing friction more than safety/security. If those are every bit as low friction as the alternatives, I’m willing. (But that includes “I heard a podcast while I was driving mention patron; I should spend 30 seconds and give that creator money.” where I can find and login to Patreon faster than I can find the creator’s random website URL.) For recurring billing, no, I will not give a rand…

I use DonorBox for supporters of my indie conference [0] and I have a healthy revenue stream (would be healthier if I had a Patreon.)

Is that an OK choice given your preferences? It seems low friction, with the caveat that you have to remember my random website URL.

[0] https://handmade-seattle.com/donate

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#164

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

conradfr wrote: post #154

fartcannon wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's about 10x more that I'd consider reasonable for what is effectly hosting a static website and bulletin board. I think we've all just had our expectations blown out of the water by Steam (and the subsequent app stores).

There's nothing static about processing payments and providing support.

That's not "the infrastructure", then, that's one piece of it.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#165

Post by rglullis » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

1270018080 wrote: post #160

rglullis wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking from the perspective of the merchant . Imagine bogus chargebacks because of buyer's remorse or purchases done with stolen credit cards. None of this happens for a merchant that accepts crypto.

So if you just pretend there's no fraud, then there's no fraud?

No, what I am saying is that if you reduce the methods for fraud, the cost of dealing with it are lower.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#166

Post by 1270018080 » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #165

1270018080 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you just pretend there's no fraud, then there's no fraud?

No, what I am saying is that if you reduce the methods for fraud, the cost of dealing with it are lower.

Crypto doesn't reduce the methods for fraud.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#167

Post by gjvnq » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:36 PM UTC

brendanyounger wrote: post #133

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charge backs should also be less of an issue if the purchase is $1. Same with fraud. The stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? It's not worth disputing. Fire the customer if it crosses a threshold.

Having run a B2C business with recurring monthly payments around $15, I assure you that fraud goes UP with lower payment amounts. You preferentially attract the worst possible customers who bank with the lowest common denominator banks and they charge back like crazy. Some choice moments: "Please keep my service on, I only charged back because I needed to make rent this month", "I know that wasn't my card, but that b…

> And it's hard to fire these customers because they come back with a different card and fake names.

Perhaps it is time to start asking for government IDs before accessing customer service.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#168

Post by janosdebugs » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #158

MattRix wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t using crypto lead to more fraud, not less?

I am talking from the perspective of the merchant . Imagine bogus chargebacks because of buyer's remorse or purchases done with stolen credit cards. None of this happens for a merchant that accepts crypto.

Just because crypto doesn't offer chargebacks doesn't mean that the customer is not legally entitled to a refund. Depending on the jurisdiction of the merchant and the customer there are a number of scenarios where the merchant is legally obliged to providing a refund. For example, in Germany when a minor makes the purchase, the transaction may be invalid and the merchant has to refund the money.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#169

Post by lalopalota » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #157

rollcat wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crypto is meant to be an alternative for the cases where the cost of existing processors make the transaction not viable. Allow me to quote myself: using proof of work in place of CC processor fees is just moving the problem around - and arguably, making it worse: you're essentially taking on environmental debt, which all of us will eventually have to pay down.

Ethereum is moving to PoS in less than two months. Can we please drop this BS excuse of an argument? (Before you reply with the usual "Ethereum devs have been promising PoS for years" line, I will tell you this: I pledge to drop all work on Hub20 if Ethereum doesn't complete the transition by the end of the year.)

How is this a "BS excuse of an argument"? Is proof of work being used?? Hmmm, yes it is. Thus, the argument stands.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#170

Post by rglullis » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

1270018080 wrote: post #166

rglullis wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what I am saying is that if you reduce the methods for fraud, the cost of dealing with it are lower.

Crypto doesn't reduce the methods for fraud.

How can a customer use a stolen credit card to make payments with crypto? And how does a customer initiate a bogus chargeback on the blockchain?