Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#271

Post by azemetre » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 6:59 PM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #269

azemetre wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you apply these same arguments to other moral hazards like pollution? Wanting to regulate social media (when there are no meaningful regulations) is hardly tyranny.

> Do you apply these same arguments to other moral hazards like pollution? No, it's not in the same category. Pollution is a cost that is imposed on an uninvolved third party. I do however apply the same argument to things like gambling, fast food, video games, traditional media, etc.

Why can't it be the same category? How many studies need to smack you in the face about social media causing increased levels of depression and anxiety in both teens and adults? Why should social media companies get zero scrutiny for a way of living that they hoisted into the world with zero thought for the repercussions? Why do individuals have to fix a multination corporation's fuck up rather than regulating these companies.

I mean we have Meta itself denying researchers data to study this phenomena independently. How is that fair? I as an individual am apparently not even allowed to study how this harms me or my loved ones.

IDK, seems like the whole thing has gone awry to me. These companies deserve the hate they get and they've done a disastrous job navigating the political landscape.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#272

Post by nonrandomstring » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:04 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #266

nonrandomstring wrote: post #21

I went to a "progressive" school where we had one strange class called "Design For Living". Today we'd probably call it "lifehacking". Among the fascinating and odd topics was a lesson on managing free time. The premise was a (socialist?) vision that everything would be done by robots by 2000, and we would have to find good hobbies and interests, keep fit and volunteer doing good things for our communities. I think d…

Bucky Fuller calculated that we should all be able to retire after a career of about two years having paid for the rest of our lives, by sometime in the 1970's if we apply our resources and technology efficiently. It was part of his "Design Science Revolution". The technology has arrived on schedule but the logistics are still messed up. At least part of the problem is the elites siphoning off capital to Panama or wh…

Very interesting, Thanks for sharing.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#273

Post by Firmwarrior » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #209

Firmwarrior wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take: If you can follow the posts here, you can make 300k in the US Check out the salaries on levels.fyi And no, it is not reasonable to make 100k in the Midwest instead. Unless you're buying like $50,000 worth of gas and eggs per year, you're going to save WAY more in the SF Bay Area and reclaim years of your life by retiring earlier

Buy a house in the midwest that's the same size as one in the bay area and you can retire early on 100k income :) And it'll have a lawn instead of a tent city.

Yeah, or you could buy and live in a crappy condo in the bay area, then sell it and buy a nice house in the Midwest 10 years sooner

There's definitely a tradeoff, but it's disingenuous to imply that it's a good financial move to take a 50% pay cut

That said, these last couple of years remote work has really taken off, so maybe you can have your nice house in the Midwest and retire early in it too

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#274

Post by actually_a_dog » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #258

azemetre wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you argue it’s a lack of discipline when companies like Meta and Google literally hire psychologists to make their products more addicting? Why should society pay the price for their malfeasance?

Because our free society is based on the fundamental assumption that grown-up adults are generally responsible and act in their own best interest. Throwing out those assumptions is very dangerous and brings us closer to authoritarianism and tyranny.

Free society? What kind of "free society" is it when people can't afford basics like housing, healthcare, and education?

The median US individual income is currently about $36k. People at the median are either not making it or just barely making it. How is that "free?" MIT has calculated that the living wage in the US is just over $24/hour which is $48k per year. The median is about 1/3 short of that. That's what you call "free?"

See https://livingwage.mit.edu/

Correction: a living wage for an individual is nearly $40k or $20/hour. This is approximately the median individual income. Half of people literally can't live self-sufficiently, and you want to call this a "free" society?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#275

Post by gmadsen » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:07 PM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #258

azemetre wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you argue it’s a lack of discipline when companies like Meta and Google literally hire psychologists to make their products more addicting? Why should society pay the price for their malfeasance?

Because our free society is based on the fundamental assumption that grown-up adults are generally responsible and act in their own best interest. Throwing out those assumptions is very dangerous and brings us closer to authoritarianism and tyranny.

that is not true. people say that for certain things, but not for others. why is it that food processing is regulated? If people are responsible and act in their own interest, then it shouldn't be the responsibility of companies to comply to safety regulations. Same thing with OSHA. If people want to work in dangerous life threatening conditions, that is their best interest choice??

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#276

Post by vorpalhex » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

azemetre wrote: post #268

vorpalhex wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to rephrase the parents comment: You're going to have a lot more luck correcting yourself than moving others.

No it’s actually much easier to correct at the government level because it forces bad actors to rectify their behavior. Blaming the individual is such a weak argument, especially since the deck is stacked against you as an individual.

Right, which is why GDPR has totally solved all data harvesting and breaches..

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#277

Post by Forgeties79 » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

CodeSgt wrote: post #141

eunoia wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be? This is how we end up with no art, no music, no culture, no raising of the future generations etc. If the only metric via which we value time spent and effort spent is money earned none of these (very important) things can compare even to the most…

Plenty of people pay for art and music. I didn't say they weren't valuable, I said what you're trying to offer specifically may not be valuable. I know you think it's some incredible service that everybody wants, but have you considered that maybe it isn't?

Are you in the arts or a field adjacent to it, by chance?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#278

Post by azemetre » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:20 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #276

azemetre wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s actually much easier to correct at the government level because it forces bad actors to rectify their behavior. Blaming the individual is such a weak argument, especially since the deck is stacked against you as an individual.

Right, which is why GDPR has totally solved all data harvesting and breaches..

Since the alternative was continuing to do nothing, yes yes it was.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#279

Post by Forgeties79 » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #150

eunoia wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be? This is how we end up with no art, no music, no culture, no raising of the future generations etc. If the only metric via which we value time spent and effort spent is money earned none of these (very important) things can compare even to the most…

That makes no sense. People do pay for those things. They buy art and concert tickets. Teaching isn't super lucrative but they earn a decent living wage in most areas.

Agreed with your comment up to this:

>but they earn a decent living wage in most areas.

Debatable and only part of the problem. Education is a terrible example for you to bring up, as evidenced by the absurdly low salaries they receive combined with the broad expectations of their job (therapy, education, tutoring, crisis intervention, nutrition, baby sitting, special needs identification, the list goes on).

Have you seen the turnover rates in education? It’s in an appalling state. No resources, garbage pay, and now they’re being asked to shoot back at school shooters as their schools are redesigned to look like prisons, all while politicians play tug of war with their curriculum as a proxy battle for social policies.

The sad fact is we don’t value educators in the US. Hell we don’t value caregivers much either.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#280

Post by Forgeties79 » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:24 PM UTC

CodeSgt wrote: post #115

Forgeties79 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I’ve gotten older, I have been vocalizing a question to my friends and family: why is it so unreasonable of me to not want to work a job I don’t like, and instead spend my time producing documentaries and teaching audio production to kids? These are two things I’ve found I love doing. They provide value to society. Yet a sustained income from them is basically unattainable except in very specific, lucky cases, not…

Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be? I don't think it's work specifically that's tied to morality, but production. If someone is obviously consuming more than they're producing, then they're going to get negative attention. In 2022 it's not always clear exactly how much someone is produ…

Do you think the measure of worth in society is how much people are willing to pay for it? Is that the metric by which we should judge all contributions to society?

Also, do you think documentaries are valuable? Because the vast majority do not have investors and do not make much money. Frankly without grants we’d barely have any.