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SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

nytimes.com

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Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#761

Post by teawrecks »

rgbrenner wrote: post #727
bko wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. It didnt say Elon was "all wrong"... it criticized 1 or 2 things. For all we know they agree with the other 99%. This is a common in these responses defending Elon. They take the letter, turn it into something much much worse.. and then say: dont they deserve to be fired? The version of the letter youre describing does not exist.

"all wrong" in this case was ambiguous. I interpreted it as meaning "all members of leadership are wrong about something" not that "leadership is wrong about all things".

But I also disagree with their argument simply because Musk's actions are very public and represent the employees who stand behind him. It would be one thing if these were internal decisions that employees disagreed with, but that's not the situation. Musk is a leader, and the people who choose to stand behind him rely on him to represent them well. If they feel he is not doing his job, they are well within their rights to voice their concerns to him. If he reacts like a baby-man who can't take criticism, then the workers should be ready to take their skills elsewhere.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#762

Post by foepys »

Qem wrote: post #565
pvaldes wrote: post #543

To put things in context, the astonishing amount of five employees were fired. And more than 9400 employees weren't fired. It sounds like most Space X employees are doing fine. And we are talking about an example of "soviet management" here?

Surely they feel a bit intimidated now. The Stasi also left a lot of people alive in East Germany as well, doing just fine.

You are forgetting that the Stasi needed quite a lot of concrete and border guards to keep people from leaving and that the whole thing collapsed in the end in a peaceful revolution because the people didn't want to take it anymore.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#763

Post by colinmhayes »

tmp_anon_22 wrote: post #609
unboxingelf wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. His accomplishments are long and impressive but it seems social media has distracted, if not corrupted his line of sight.

> His accomplishments are long and impressive What are Elon Musks accomplishments? His ability to get financing? Hiring the right people to push the success of SpaceX and Tesla? His ability to inflate the stock price of his company (above that of a historic bull market). This isn't a cynical comment, I'm honestly trying to understand his actual accomplishments other then the ancillary praise one gets in America just…

Musk is a marketing genius. Creating a cult of personality around your companies is not at all an easy thing to do.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#764

Post by ss108 »

zenron wrote: post #454
phailhaus wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody knows that he's within his rights to fire them. It just throws cold water on all his grandstanding about being a "free speech absolutist". EDIT: Everyone telling me that company employees are different from Twitter are missing the point. We know that. But he clearly doesn't care about free speech "absolutely" when he throws a fit that his employees are criticizing him.

Being a free speech absolutist has nothing to do with consequences from invoking your free speech. Everyone wanting free speech despite what type of speech that they legally allow is the price we pay to have it. Invoking it and using ignorant, racist or hatefull language doesn't mean you won't pay a social price for it. It just means we won't throw you in jail using the state for it. But you may just lose your jobs.…

"It just means we won't throw you in jail using the state for it. But you may just lose your jobs. Thems' the breaks."

This is a misrepresentation of the current "debate" taking place regarding free speech, a debate we have frequently on Hacker News. Nobody is threatened with jail for saying anything in the US, so if that was the primary bone of contention, the debate wouldn't exist. It's more about cancel culture, etc.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#765

Post by kerblang »

jdlshore wrote: post #717
kerblang wrote: post #617

One of the demands from the letter: > Define and uniformly respond to all forms of unacceptable behavior. Clearly define what exactly is intended by SpaceX’s “no-asshole” and “zero tolerance” policies and enforce them consistently. That's exactly the problem with companies that like to brag about their "we-don't-allow-jerks-here" culture: It's arbitrary. If you focus on creating a culture of objectivity, facts and ho…

> If you focus on creating a culture of objectivity, facts and honesty, you'll solve most of your jerk problems without having to figure out what "jerk" means. Are you speaking from experience? As a consultant, I occasionally run into companies that have an asshole problem (it’s pretty rare, fortunately), and your comment seems like wishful thinking to the point of naivety. In fact, overly blunt and “honest” communic…

Yes, from 30 years of professional experience in fact; in federal govt, state govt, startups, megacorps and then some.

If you must insist that objectivity & facts are a fantasy world, and that people should be attacked for being honest, then there is nothing anyone can do to help you.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#766

Post by panick21_ »

riazrizvi wrote: post #264
chasd00 wrote: post #125

Twitter is the worst thing to happen to Musk. The social media addiction knows no class/age/wealth/religious/creed boundary. It’s like social cancer that slowly destroys your relationship to society. Musk has done great things but these days I think he’s at his lowest point. /I’ve said this about three times now in threads like these.

Worst thing? His influencing is central to his success. Unfortunately for civil discourse, it’s more effective to create controversial messaging that resonates with your followers, than sanitized messaging that is generally inoffensive. Controversial messaging makes your supporters increasingly loyal and attentive, as the noise from vocal ‘haters’ just keeps feeding your base. It’s perverse, it’s toxic, it’s exhausti…

Tesla and SpaceX are not successful because of Twitter.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#768

Post by IncRnd »

enriquto wrote: post #619
bko wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

> At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Make sure to publicize this loudly to people outside the organization. See what happens. Ha! We do that all time at the university and nobody cares. At all. Nothing happens. Ever. It is somewhat infuriating, to be honest! Are you saying that academia is "not the real world" ?

The environment in academia is absolutely not the same as a corporate environment.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#769

Post by adrr »

sangnoir wrote: post #633
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders Wouldn't it be ironic if a man who is "fighting to preserve free speech" fired employees for their speech he disagrees with? Oh, wait...

If Musks buys Twitter, do you think he’ll allow the Elon Jet Twitter account to remain?

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#770

Post by DrewRWx »

commandlinefan wrote: post #647
axg11 wrote: post #110

This is a very predictable consequence of criticizing your employer via a public letter. Criticize internally all you want, and influence the changes that you want to see happen. Employment is a two-way relationship. If you don't like your employer, you are free to leave. If they don't like you, they are free to fire you (within legal bounds). Publishing an openly critical letter and signing it is a quick way to get…

> Criticize internally all you want Tell that to James Damore.

The charlatan biologist?
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