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SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

nytimes.com

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Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#741

Post by Ombudsman »

bko wrote: post #600
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

> These are children that think they can just shout down leadership and suffer no consequences.

Exactly. Although, it's hypocritical of Musk to fire employees who criticize him but criticize Twitter for banning/censoring accounts for spouting opinions that Twitter doesn't align with. If SpaceX has this right, Twitter should too.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#742

Post by brtkdotse »

bko wrote: post #600
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

> Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Make sure to publicize this loudly to people outside the organization. See what happens. What should the appropriate response be?

At most places, leadership actually… leads. Musk is a token publicity figure at best at this point, a mascot.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#743

Post by mempko »

logifail wrote: post #654
HillRat wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workplace union agreements and outside of a whistleblower or other protected situation, enough to get you fired, though not fired for cause. Are the optics bad? Yes. Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his fee…

> Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? It could be that Musk recognises that a significant group of his staff - likely the majority - simply don't want a loud minority group - possibly a tiny minority - "making waves" and intimidating others into joining their cause. I've just started Nassim Nicholas Taleb's latest book, but in previous work he wrote about "The Most Intolerant Wins: Th…

Isn't a group of 1 still a minority? Isn't Musk himself a loud minority of the company who wields lots of power? Isn't SpaceX in this case already a Dictatorship of the Small Minority?

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#744

Post by IncRnd »

toomanyrichies wrote: post #615
IncRnd wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THat's not how the term "insubordination" is used in the context of employment. Insubordination also might be "Directly questioning or mocking management decisions". [1] Another example: 5 insubordination in the workplace examples [2] 1. Refusal to complete a task 2. Refusal to come into work 3. Refusal to remain at work 4. Disrespecting authority figures 5. Sabotaging team or organizational activities [1] https://ww…

The authors aren't mocking Musk at all. The tone of the letter is professional yet direct and constructive. As far as questioning "management decisions", the closest example of this that I can find is the mention of the company's selective application of things like the "No Assholes" policy, which seems like a completely valid problem to surface. For the most part, they're questioning his tweets and their effect on e…

> The authors aren't mocking Musk at all.

I never said they are, and that's not why they were fired. From the article: "The letter, solicitations and general process made employees feel uncomfortable, intimidated and bullied, and/or angry because the letter pressured them to sign onto something that did not reflect their views," Ms. Shotwell wrote.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#745

Post by marvin »

daenz wrote: post #252
enumjorge wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be unexpected for a company run by a free speech absolutist.

I had to look up what a free speech absolutist was[0]. As far as the definition goes, which is about opposing any speech restrictions from the state, I don't see how the internal communications of a private company falls under that. 0. https://www.liberties.eu/en/stories/free-speech-absolutist/4...

But Musk has loudly stated that Twitter, a private company, should uphold equally strong standards towards freedom of speech as the state. Which in itself is a fair argument insofar as Twitter is so central to democratic discourse that its censorship will have destructive effects on democratic discourse comparable to what would happen if state censorship did.

But this leads to a pretty blatant double standard if he fires his employees for participating in public discussion and criticism of himself.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#746

Post by rhino369 »

trs8080 wrote: post #640
rhino369 wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its more of a later millennial and Gen-Z thing. Gen-X was more--call out "the man" and then taking being fired as a badge of pride Gen-Z wants to call people out without repercussions.

Gen-X is middle management at these companies. That generation has never been a martyr for ANY cause - isn't Gen-X's whole "thing" that they're all nihilists and nothing matters etc etc? People should be called out. Musk is always talking about upending established orders and questioning the status quo - guess he's more interested in loyalists.

Gen-X when they were young were sort of anti-conformist and anti-corporate. "Selling out" was the biggest insult. You see it reflected in the popular media of the time--like Office Space and Matrix. But in order to have financial success and raise families they "sold out" and went to work for the man.

>People should be called out. Musk is always talking about upending established orders and questioning the status quo - guess he's more interested in loyalists.

Depends what you mean by calling out because must of current call out culture is toxic garbage. I think successful organizations need to encourage questioning decisions. But questioning isn't the same thing as loudly criticizing in a public manner.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#747

Post by Phlarp »

bko wrote: post #600
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

Does that boot taste good?

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#748

Post by davesque »

riazrizvi wrote: post #264
chasd00 wrote: post #125

Twitter is the worst thing to happen to Musk. The social media addiction knows no class/age/wealth/religious/creed boundary. It’s like social cancer that slowly destroys your relationship to society. Musk has done great things but these days I think he’s at his lowest point. /I’ve said this about three times now in threads like these.

Worst thing? His influencing is central to his success. Unfortunately for civil discourse, it’s more effective to create controversial messaging that resonates with your followers, than sanitized messaging that is generally inoffensive. Controversial messaging makes your supporters increasingly loyal and attentive, as the noise from vocal ‘haters’ just keeps feeding your base. It’s perverse, it’s toxic, it’s exhausti…

That's a false dichotomy. In reality, there are more options than just "be boring" or "be sensational." Those other options just aren't in fashion right now.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#749

Post by rhino369 »

lanstin wrote: post #628
rhino369 wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its more of a later millennial and Gen-Z thing. Gen-X was more--call out "the man" and then taking being fired as a badge of pride Gen-Z wants to call people out without repercussions.

Amazing how harmful trashing educational and economic opportunities was for democracy. We could always get jobs with benefits and almost enough money for a house and family. They can’t.

The trouble makers amongst Gen-Z are mostly the privileged college educated ones. The working poor aren't too tired from being exploited to engage in this stuff.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#750

Post by micromacrofoot »

Justin_K wrote: post #301
justinph wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't it an internal letter that was leaked? I mean sure, being leaked is a predictable consequence, but it may be a distinction with a difference if the criticizers didn't themselves leak it. Regardless, will be interesting to see how this plays out. If I were one of those employees, I'd be talking to a lawyer. If I was one of the employees still working at SpaceX, I'd be talking about a union. We recently unionize…

Getting fired for insubordination isn't a protected class. The former employees don't have a case.

Saying a bad thing about your employer isn't insubordination.

That said, most places in the US are at-will employment, so you can fire your employees for no reason.

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