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SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

nytimes.com

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Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#701

Post by trs8080 »

logifail wrote: post #654
HillRat wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workplace union agreements and outside of a whistleblower or other protected situation, enough to get you fired, though not fired for cause. Are the optics bad? Yes. Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his fee…

> Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? It could be that Musk recognises that a significant group of his staff - likely the majority - simply don't want a loud minority group - possibly a tiny minority - "making waves" and intimidating others into joining their cause. I've just started Nassim Nicholas Taleb's latest book, but in previous work he wrote about "The Most Intolerant Wins: Th…

> Back in the old days(!) one was expected to do one's job well, to treat others professionally - and to expect others to treat you well - but don't bring your private causes into the workplace and expect everyone to love you for it.

Excluding of course, the CEO of the company in question. He can say anything he wants, fight with and call people pedophiles on Twitter, run a crypto pump and dump scheme, spread pandemic conspiracies, etc etc etc to the point that investors in his companies have spoken up about it and now his own employees are writing letters. That behavior is totally professional and ok.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#702

Post by fullshark »

evan_ wrote: post #682
fullshark wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s the same old Elon, the pedo guy tweet and taking Tesla private at $420 are just as embarrassing if not more so , he’s just on the other side of the culture war divide now (I.e the Republican side) so he’s now considered shameful in many parts.

weird comment, many many people considered "pedo guy" and everything else to be shameful at the time

Op and others are claiming he’s at his lowest point now in terms of shameful behavior presumably.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#703

Post by therealdrag0 »

rajin444 wrote: post #676
kerblang wrote: post #617

One of the demands from the letter: > Define and uniformly respond to all forms of unacceptable behavior. Clearly define what exactly is intended by SpaceX’s “no-asshole” and “zero tolerance” policies and enforce them consistently. That's exactly the problem with companies that like to brag about their "we-don't-allow-jerks-here" culture: It's arbitrary. If you focus on creating a culture of objectivity, facts and ho…

> If you focus on creating a culture of objectivity, facts and honesty, you'll solve most of your jerk problems without having to figure out what "jerk" means. I dunno, jerk is arbitrarily defined by society. There’s no objective way to define it - which is why most companies that do end up on “whatever behavior makes us the most money”, ie acquiescing to power.

I’d go further, a lot of people obsessed with “facts” and “honest” is a recipe for jerks. “I’m just being honest” is a common justification for being a jerk. A no-jerks culture is one where you know how to pick your battles and where you can let other people be wrong when it keeps the peace and doesn’t actually matter.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#704

Post by not2b »

Just shows that Musk has no actual interest in free speech. But SpaceX is a private company and is free to fire employees for their speech, you say. That's true, they can legally do that, since there's no union contract, but Twitter is also a private company and free not to publish speech that advocates the overthrow of the government or vaccine denial. My prediction is that a Musk-owned Twitter will wind up banning posts or even accounts for criticizing Musk too aggressively, since the guy has thin skin and will have the power.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#705

Post by toomanyrichies »

throwyawayyyy wrote: post #644
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

Well, sure, it's probably legal to fire them. But it smacks of "one rule for me, one rule for thee" from Mr "free speech absolutist" Musk, right?

I think we're in agreement. I made a similar point in another reply in this thread. I argued that talking about whether the firings are legal is irrelevant since most states have at-will employment laws, and that a more useful question is "are these firings a good idea?"

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#707

Post by dlp211 »

logifail wrote: post #654
HillRat wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workplace union agreements and outside of a whistleblower or other protected situation, enough to get you fired, though not fired for cause. Are the optics bad? Yes. Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his fee…

> Musk believes your right to speech ends where his feelings get hurt? It could be that Musk recognises that a significant group of his staff - likely the majority - simply don't want a loud minority group - possibly a tiny minority - "making waves" and intimidating others into joining their cause. I've just started Nassim Nicholas Taleb's latest book, but in previous work he wrote about "The Most Intolerant Wins: Th…

I think that it's interesting that you cite "the most intolerant win" and assume that it applies to those trying to change the workplace today and not the de facto work place that you so cherished.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#708

Post by oh_sigh »

toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

993 comments here and literally only one person called it insubordination.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#709

Post by bestcoder69 »

iamleppert wrote: post #502

Quoted post unavailable.

IANAL, but you may want to edit or amend this comment if you're in a leadership position because it might technically be illegal (assuming U.S.), even though it's satire.

See Ben Shapiro's and Ben Domenech's recent NLRB ULP charges. Shapiro had his thrown out because he RT'd an Employees Rights poster (which is more or less the remedy anyway), and Domenech got lucky and had a judge reach a "no-coercion conclusion" in his case.[0]

[0]: https://mattbruenig.com/2022/05/21/federalist-ulp-ends-in-bi...

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#710

Post by kerblang »

tmp_anon_22 wrote: post #680
kerblang wrote: post #617

One of the demands from the letter: > Define and uniformly respond to all forms of unacceptable behavior. Clearly define what exactly is intended by SpaceX’s “no-asshole” and “zero tolerance” policies and enforce them consistently. That's exactly the problem with companies that like to brag about their "we-don't-allow-jerks-here" culture: It's arbitrary. If you focus on creating a culture of objectivity, facts and ho…

It doesn't help that the CEO on Twitter has multiple times presented the exact behavior mentioned.

Well I'd like to see examples of the dishonest tweets you're talking about... But that leads into a more important issue: These employees insisted that Musk's personal Twitter account is his de facto business Twitter account. Confusing this business/personal boundary is part of the problem. I don't think it's fair for them to say, "You're a public figure, so you're not allowed to have a personal life," but perhaps Mr Musk does need to clarify his boundaries.
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