SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk • Hacker News Board

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#661

Post by stingraycharles » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #619

bko wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

> At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Make sure to publicize this loudly to people outside the organization. See what happens. Ha! We do that all time at the university and nobody cares. At all. Nothing happens. Ever. It is somewhat infuriating, to be honest! Are you saying that academia is "not the real world" ?

I’d argue that a university is a very different type of organization than a company like SpaceX, with vastly different expectations on employee behavior.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#662

Post by etamatem » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #600

toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

> Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Make sure to publicize this loudly to people outside the organization.

This happens often: I'm guessing about once a month, and nothing happens. The difference is that Zuckerberg is not a needy, thin-skinned billionaire,and will directly address employee criticism in Q&As - as well as press leaks like a well-adjusted adult

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#663

Post by FeepingCreature » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #542

koheripbal wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Activist employees are toxic to company culture. We created a rule that politics and religion were not appropriate topics at work. A couple of people quit in response, and morale improved dramatically.

So, firing James Damore was the correct thing to do, after all? Him and his manifesto, and his subsequent behaviour were pretty distracting, political, toxic, critical of his employer, and wasted workplace resources...

Sounds like a deal might be possible! Maybe Google doesn't fire Damore and Mozilla doesn't fire Eich and Elon doesn't fire ... whoever these people are! We can call this agreement "liberalism"! Or "free speech"!

And yet, all I've heard from the left over the past decade is that corporate employees have no free speech because oh it's not covered by the first amendment, as if that gave you the right rather than acknowledging it, and how oh actually it's not a free speech issue, it's a safety issue, or whatever excuse of the week, and anyway the company can do what it wants regardless. (In this one instance only, of course.)

So! Fine, normally I'd be against this sort of thing of people being fired for voicing opinions, but in this case there is a big heaping of schadenfreude involved.

Leopard fence was good for something after all, was it!

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#664

Post by UberFly » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

MPSimmons wrote: post #451

hunterb123 wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Could you please define "woke culture" for me?

Topics that usually include "racial or social discrimination and injustice". They are introduced to the workplace in many different forms and reasons. When it comes to the workplace, some are justified some aren't. There are lots of social issues that should remain muted or non-existent in the workplace, but yea it also just depends on the situation.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#665

Post by gonehome » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #600

toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

It also just seems ridiculous to try to separate Musk from the companies he's built. He's clearly a major factor in their success and it'd be stupid to remove him.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#666

Post by usrusr » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

HillRat wrote: post #497

toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workplace union agreements and outside of a whistleblower or other protected situation, enough to get you fired, though not fired for cause. Are the optics bad? Yes. Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his fee…

Is there any indication that free speech absolutism of the Muskian kind might also extend to people who aren't "financially independent"?

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#667

Post by stevenwoo » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #579

HillRat wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workplace union agreements and outside of a whistleblower or other protected situation, enough to get you fired, though not fired for cause. Are the optics bad? Yes. Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his fee…

What other organization wouldn't let go of someone under these circumstances? Are there any employees that openly, pulicaly and very vocally criticize their leadership Imagine working with someone like this? If you've been in an organization with people are constantly getting into flame wars about political issues, its incredibly distracting to those that want to get work done. Some people buy the whole "we're a fami…

Basecamp and github most recently off the top of my head. IIRC one of Basecamp's founders is about the same ballpark as Musk and was called out to his face at a company meeting and on the other side Github kept the Nazi sympathizer who criticized the Jewish employee for complaining about Nazis, but fired the HR decision maker and tried to rehire the Jewish employee.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#668

Post by BobbyJo » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

toomanyrichies wrote: post #525

HillRat wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workplace union agreements and outside of a whistleblower or other protected situation, enough to get you fired, though not fired for cause. Are the optics bad? Yes. Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his fee…

Except for Montana, every state in the US is an at-will employment state. Meaning the employer (and the employee) may terminate employment at any time, with or without cause or prior notice. In circumstances like this, the idea of "X is enough to get you fired" loses its meaning, since "X" could mean anything or nothing at all. Therefore, the relevant question is not "is the company within its rights to fire these em…

> "X" could mean anything or nothing at all.

Somewhat untrue in theory. Completely untrue in practice. There are a few things you legally cannot be fired for, and a whole plethora of things a company would need to very very careful about firing you for, lest they wind up in court.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#669

Post by Aeolun » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #337

I'm picturing Apple employees writing an open letter criticizing Steve Jobs and saying they don't want him to be the face of the company, or Amazon employees saying they don't want Jeff Bezos to be the image of the company, or GE employees saying they don't want Jack Welch to be tarnishing the brand of the company, or...just about any other big corporation. The CEO's job involves, among other things, being the public…

> If you're not on the board of directors, the way you register displeasure with your CEO is to leave the company.

What? No!? That is a sure way for your displeasure to never even reach the same hemisphere as the CEO. Even this letter is better, at least he’s aware, and the end result is exactly the same (not at the company any more).

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#670

Post by groby_b » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

HillRat wrote: post #497

toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

Even so, they're not protected against being fired -- circulating an internal letter criticizing leadership is, in a right to work state without existing workplace union agreements and outside of a whistleblower or other protected situation, enough to get you fired, though not fired for cause. Are the optics bad? Yes. Is it indicative that "free speech absolutist" Musk believes your right to speech ends where his fee…

The NLRB would like a word with you. They've held that public complaints might qualify as protected activity - and "right to work" doesn't get you a get-out-of-jail-free card for that. The key is that this was "concerted" activity - a group of employees, not a single individual grousing.

I strongly hope the fired individuals do look into getting a labor lawyer representing them.