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SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

nytimes.com

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Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#611

Post by babypuncher »

rossdavidh wrote: post #337

I'm picturing Apple employees writing an open letter criticizing Steve Jobs and saying they don't want him to be the face of the company, or Amazon employees saying they don't want Jeff Bezos to be the image of the company, or GE employees saying they don't want Jack Welch to be tarnishing the brand of the company, or...just about any other big corporation. The CEO's job involves, among other things, being the public…

The idea that you cannot criticize your CEO is ridiculous. How is the board supposed to know how employees feel if they keep quiet out of fear?

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#612

Post by guerrilla »

Seems pretty consistent. He's big into pretending to be for freedom of speech and never being for it if it ever actually matters. I see a lot of people here saying any billionaire boss would do the same, well, yes, that's the point, but the thing is that he very consistently and incessantly lies about not being like those "other" people and being for principles that he has never once stood for in reality. I don't recall Steve Jobs blathering about "free speech" on podcats and Twitter.

[edit] p.s. Did anyone read the comments here before posting? It's just the same comments over and over and over and over again, wtf is this shit. Can't we do better?

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#613

Post by 99_00 »

>Elon’s behavior in the public sphere is a frequent source of distraction and embarrassment for us, particularly in recent weeks.

What happened in recent weeks?

The letter is condemnation by innuendo. They don't say exactly why they want Musk removed and only hint at it and make general statements.

An advantage of that approach is that it is difficult for the accused to defend themselves. The disadvantage is that if the accused has power they can squash this and the accusers are exposed because vague accusations are difficult to justify as they are to defend against.

I suspect they don't say why they want Musk removed because their reasons stated clearly and directly would be unpalatable. I think the reason they want him removed is because he expressed support for the Republican party. In the USA, in many circles, it is still unacceptable to condemn people based on political affiliation.

It is however, more acceptable to use innuendo about racial and sexual rights as a weapon for indirect political persecution.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#614

Post by makeitdouble »

bko wrote: post #600
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

Would you apply the same logic to your leaders drowning the company stock and killing the public image ?

What should the appropriate response be ?

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#615

Post by toomanyrichies »

IncRnd wrote: post #534
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

THat's not how the term "insubordination" is used in the context of employment. Insubordination also might be "Directly questioning or mocking management decisions". [1] Another example: 5 insubordination in the workplace examples [2] 1. Refusal to complete a task 2. Refusal to come into work 3. Refusal to remain at work 4. Disrespecting authority figures 5. Sabotaging team or organizational activities [1] https://ww…

The authors aren't mocking Musk at all. The tone of the letter is professional yet direct and constructive. As far as questioning "management decisions", the closest example of this that I can find is the mention of the company's selective application of things like the "No Assholes" policy, which seems like a completely valid problem to surface. For the most part, they're questioning his tweets and their effect on employee morale.

As for the 2nd example- which of those 5 points are the letter's authors guilty of? The only one of those 5 that looks even remotely relevant is #4, but even that's a stretch since there's a difference between "criticizing" and "disrespecting".

Musk might believe those two things are one and the same, but they are, in fact, quite different.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#616

Post by waffleiron »

bko wrote: post #600
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

> The rest of us who live in the real world understand that hierarchy doesn't exist arbitrarily and we're not entitled to have someone pay us while we're spitting in their face.

And someone isn't entitled to spit in your face just because they pay you. Respect for people should go both ways, and the view that just because someone is rich, above you in the ladder, you should just shut up and take it, isn't a good one too.

Workers have very little power to fight back, yes there might be consequences but they wouldn't have written this letter if they didn't feel they weren't already living under the consequences of bad leadership.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#617

Post by kerblang »

One of the demands from the letter:

    > Define and uniformly respond to all forms of unacceptable behavior. Clearly define what exactly is intended by SpaceX’s “no-asshole” and “zero tolerance” policies and enforce them consistently.
That's exactly the problem with companies that like to brag about their "we-don't-allow-jerks-here" culture: It's arbitrary. If you focus on creating a culture of objectivity, facts and honesty, you'll solve most of your jerk problems without having to figure out what "jerk" means.

Given as much, if this is really about Mr Musk's political endorsements, folks need to get over it. But inasmuch as he embraces dishonesty (one example: the "pedo" incident from way back) then I'd agree that the company should discipline him.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#618

Post by gfodor »

yokoprime wrote: post #271
gfodor wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Wow. Just wow. The "radical" US left equals the conservative right in many European countries. While you certainly may think Europe is full of "second tier countries", I think it's time to broaden your horizons. If anything the problem is they are ineffective and are poor at keeping file and rank compared to the GOP. The GOP on the other-hand tries to drive the US towards a ultra-conservative future, erasing the sepa…

The left in the US is to the left of Europe now in many ways. By second tier I wasn’t referring to politics, but referring to our collapse into a weak economic and cultural power.

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#619

Post by enriquto »

bko wrote: post #600
toomanyrichies wrote: post #434

To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pet…

> The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. Here's an experiment. At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Mak…

> At your place of work, circulate a document criticizing leadership and how they're all wrong. Make sure to publicize this loudly to people outside the organization. See what happens.

Ha! We do that all time at the university and nobody cares. At all. Nothing happens. Ever. It is somewhat infuriating, to be honest!

Are you saying that academia is "not the real world" ?

Re: SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

#620

Post by [deleted] »

jakupovic wrote: post #406
axg11 wrote: post #110

This is a very predictable consequence of criticizing your employer via a public letter. Criticize internally all you want, and influence the changes that you want to see happen. Employment is a two-way relationship. If you don't like your employer, you are free to leave. If they don't like you, they are free to fire you (within legal bounds). Publishing an openly critical letter and signing it is a quick way to get…

Quoted post unavailable.

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