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The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

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Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#61

Post by amanaplanacanal »

kube-system wrote: post #39
sjtindell wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see this at all. They didn’t make less than you because of some moral failing by society at large. They made less because there is such a glut of artists that the bottom pay rate is literally less than zero, hence “do it for the exposure”. There is more art created every day today than ever before. The old school art forms you think are so crucial just aren’t.

Poor symphony pay is not because of labor oversupply. It’s due to a lack of revenue. Many rely highly on grants and donations to make payroll, with ticket sales only being a small fraction of their income. The budget is determined by how many wealthy donors send in money.

That feels like a semantic distraction to me. Is it too much supply, or not enough demand? I think they both mean the same thing.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#62

Post by yakak »

kareemsabri wrote: post #60
yakak wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like they are expressing shock that cities the size of San Antonio aren't willing to pay enough or for whatever reasons don't raise enough for a symphony. There's not really an alternative, the suggestions of professional symphony players working for almost nothing or compromising their performances by not practicing are rather offensive. From a union of musicians perspective, I think they made the rig…

I didn't get the impression from the article the city administers the symphony or that the budget for the musicians comes out of public funds. They aren't expressing shock at the city, they're expressing shock at one or two comments on here that they deem morally disgusting. It's totally unnecessary (we can read) but pretty standard.

It seems to me like you are inventing ridiculous interpretations. A city of a million can do whatever it likes with private and public fund raising to support it's art and sport choices. San Antonio wanted a professional symphony for 1/4 the rate by impoverishing the participants. They didn't come back to the table because they should find another job or a different city.

The rebuke of the performers for not negotiating is right in the OP. It's not the performers fault that there's no workable solution for the cities level of interest in a symphony. If the symphony goes down in quality there will be even less money.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#63

Post by josephcsible »

toyg wrote: post #42
cperciva wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stopping the entire union from starting their own symphony as a co-op. The AFM won't let them. Members aren't allowed to take gigs which pay less than union-defined minimum rates. In many cases they're not even allowed to donate their services to non-profits; the closest they're allowed to do is to get paid, remit union dues, and donate cash to the non-profit.

The AFM is not god - what's the worst that a union can do, expel a member? And then that member is free to work as he pleases.

Don't you basically sign your life away when you join a union? Couldn't they sue you and maybe even get an injunction against you having that job?

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#64

Post by josephcsible »

bsder wrote: post #14
josephcsible wrote: post #4

If the musicians weren't unionized, wouldn't they all be better off right now since they'd still be employed?

And if this symphony dies and takes its Board of Directors with it perhaps the city of San Antonio can get a symphony and people running it who can actually pay the bills.

Are you hoping the new symphony isn't unionized, or are you saying that after the parasite killed its host, you hope it finds a new healthier host?

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#65

Post by josephcsible »

Fatnino wrote: post #6
josephcsible wrote: post #4

If the musicians weren't unionized, wouldn't they all be better off right now since they'd still be employed?

No, they'd be stuck working for not enough money instead of looking for actual livable jobs like they are now and likely have been doing for the duration of the strike.

Can't you look for a new job equally well whether you quit on your own or your union boss ordered you not to work?

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#66

Post by kube-system »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #61
kube-system wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor symphony pay is not because of labor oversupply. It’s due to a lack of revenue. Many rely highly on grants and donations to make payroll, with ticket sales only being a small fraction of their income. The budget is determined by how many wealthy donors send in money.

That feels like a semantic distraction to me. Is it too much supply, or not enough demand? I think they both mean the same thing.

It’s more complicated than people buying fungible quantities of widgets. A donors choice to donate is not really linked to supply of labor. Wages are more greatly linked to the supply of rich philanthropists in the local area, than the supply of labor. One orchestra can supply an infinite number of philanthropists. It’s not a consumable.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#67

Post by toyg »

josephcsible wrote: post #63
toyg wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AFM is not god - what's the worst that a union can do, expel a member? And then that member is free to work as he pleases.

Don't you basically sign your life away when you join a union? Couldn't they sue you and maybe even get an injunction against you having that job?

What? I know some US sectors are somewhat locked down by unions, but that typically means there is more than a single union in that field anyway - and I would find it surprising that a union can stop you from playing music around the whole of Texas.

Definitely the scenario you mention is impossible in Europe.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#69

Post by todd8 »

Years ago, I had a partner that was a highly trained symphony musician (studied musicology and performance at a major university, PhD etc). After all these years of training and having incredible skills, she was unable to support herself.

The fundamental problem is that there are maybe 30 symphony jobs in North America for her instrument that pay enough, and there is a world of new players being churned out by Fine Arts departments all competing for the one or two spots where someone is retiring. The university departments know there are no good jobs for these students they produce, but like other university departments they compete for funds by enticing students to peruse almost useless degrees.

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