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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#481

Post by BiteCode_dev »

heavyset_go wrote: post #466
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are not upset. MS can do as they wish. We are warning people to not consider this platform the same way they consider fully free ones, despite the obvious wish of MS that they do so. This platform comes with invisible strings attached, some of them will likely turn into chains in the future. And it's MS new marketting strat to say they are open now for everything, so it's only fair we point out that the player mat…

> This platform comes with invisible strings attached, some of them will likely turn into chains in the future. Can you go into more detail about this?

MS has a long history of taking something (a tech, a concept, etc), playing fair for years to attrack people, then add more and more little details that in the end, lock you in into their ecosystem.

In this particular instance, MS has been pushing the "dev env in the cloud" commercial strategy for some times, using the openess of the VSCode ecosystem as on of the bait.

Don't get me wrong, I think VScode is a good product, and I can see the value of a dev env in the cloud that matches your local setup.

But given MS track record, I expect this to be likely a way to take control of your dev env: once it mostly resides on their server, you are locked in.

Parts of VSCode being not free are one of those little details I talked about. They hint at the direction MS is likely going to follow, as it used to do in the past.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#482

Post by torginus »

p1necone wrote: post #123
headmelted wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what's more likely in this case is that MS under Satya really does want to be a good corporate citizen, but are finding themselves in a bind that threatens the whole organisation. They're spending up the wazoo on Xbox, still, to battle PlayStation. They were supposed to have conquered that market over 15 years ago and are still throwing money at it. Windows is hurting as a retail business. License costs have…

> They're spending up the wazoo on Xbox, still, to battle PlayStation. Microsofts decision to release all of their new XBox games on PC was kinda bizarre to me. It basically guarantees the XBox as a gaming console is going to lose market share to the PlayStation and eventually die out because the core gaming market is going to pick PC + PS5 + Switch (or some subset of those) as the sensible combo to be able to play a…

Consoles are very close to PCs, hardware-wise. The main draw imo is the hassle-free gaming experience. I think the use case of building a dedicated box just for gaming is becoming less valid with every console generation.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#483

Post by modo_mario »

babypuncher wrote: post #357
cerved wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

being open is not about not paying but using it however you like, not constrained to VisualGarbage XYZ or Windows 15-xtra ultra edition

Say what you want, but Visual Studio 2022 is one of the best IDE I've used, way better than Eclipse. And You're not stuck on it either, JetBrains Rider is a 100% viable alternative and often preferred by many .NET developers. Windows is also not a requirement unless you are using old Windows-specific frameworks like WPF. ASP.NET, EFCore, IdentityServer, and everything else you need to build a web app works equally on…

>Visual Studio 2022 is one of the best IDE I've used

I consider being cross platform a valuable feature of an IDE. Do you not?

>Windows is also not a requirement unless you are using old Windows-specific frameworks like WPF.

My day job includes a lot of this. Hell even winforms is still very much alive. And even if the likes of WPF or winui was old aren't they still the graphical subsystem for desktop being pushed? I suppose then there's Maui being worked on but I believe they decided to fuck over MauiKit with that one's naming.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#484

Post by bergheim »

jsmeaton wrote: post #471
WorldMaker wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that pylance bundles in several ML models that back a lot of its performance increases over pyright and it is the ML models and closed-source data science that caused the LSP closure. I think data science also is best when it itself is open/open-source, and peer reviewed. I can understand why Microsoft wants to make that a moat to protect expensive data science and ML research boundaries and it do…

Thanks for this, it was definitely news to me. If this is the case then it makes slightly more sense, but is still disappointing.

I don't understand this. It makes sense "because ML"?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#485

Post by modo_mario »

Karunamon wrote: post #234
goodpoint wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2 major GUI toolkits, ... multiple DEs, frequent upgrades to them, also with breaking changes, a full decades of bickering I was using Linux desktops 20 years ago and the same arguments were made. They were FUD and they still are. 1) having "too much" choice is nothing to complain about. 2) if you are a beginner, pick a stable distribution and your desktop will be completely immune to churn. Use it as a productivit…

The idea of a desktop needing "maintenance" is something the industry has been moving away from.

Hence nr2?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#486

Post by robertlagrant »

soSadm4n wrote: post #400
robertlagrant wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees did not lose the money they were paid for their labour. What employee wealth is gone?

Offers that got pulled, 18% who were laid off, compensation based on speculative value that’s gone, while the CEO walks away with a much more certain personal position. All for placing a logo adjacent to others engineering feats (unless the Csuite at Coinbase is secretly Satoshi Nakamoto). Billions locked up in deference to a handful of CEOs means less liquidity in the open market. Which is intentional, I understand;…

I may be misreading, but there are several non sequiturs there. Pulled offers suck, but no one owes anything before they sign a contract. There is a level of opportunity cost, but that's not the same thing. Signed offers are getting a month's salary I think, which again reduces it to opportunity cost rather than loss of wealth.

People being laid off is not lost wealth.

Speculative value is not wealth.

"Billions locked up" requires an explanation. People with money generally invest it in assets or other companies. Who is locking up billions? Why? Is it a meaningful % of the total money supply?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#487

Post by askvictor »

ratww wrote: post #94
askvictor wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did kind of head that way in the early days of OSX, to try to bootstrap a development community by being close enough to Linux to make it easy enough to switch. I'd probably characterise them as having an abusive relationship with Open source.

This part of the macOS developer community bootstrapped itself. Apple at the time was trying to sell Java WebObjects and Carbon/Cocoa in public. The proximity with Linux was an accident. NeXT is from the late 80s, pre Linux, and NeXT was the baggage OS X had to work with. They didn't strip out the Unix parts, but also didn't widely proclaim it was "close to Linux". It was mostly the developer community touting it as…

Interesting; I only had the perspective of being a Linux enthusiast at that time, and that's what it seemed like, but it's easy to forget that our numbers were quite small back then.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#488

Post by robertlagrant »

trissylegs wrote: post #242
robertlagrant wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even though I'm sure it made sense at the time I think it definitely made sense. Xamarin was conceived in a world of many mobile platforms, and so it was the only way to develop cross-platform apps. Now there are basically two, and it's a much closer call.

Also stiff competition from React native. A lot more JS Devs around today than c#.

Yes true, but not all React ones :) And Unity has helped swell the C# ranks, I hear.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#489

Post by charles_f »

codebolt wrote: post #452
giaour wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on an open-source project for Microsoft, and I review and merge community PRs all the time. Nobody pays for the product I work on (or for C# or TypeScript, for that matter). The Contributor License Agreement used on all MSFT open source projects doesn't ask you to transfer your copyright, though it does require submitters to agree to grant a permissive copyright and patent license. IANAL, but the copyright and…

It's a stretch to say that nobody pays for C#. A commercial Visual Studio license sure isn't free, and depending on what you're making you're at a big disadvantage without one.

The same way that js isn't free because you need webstorm or an aws account to deploy a node app? That argument is a stretch too.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#490

Post by goodpoint »

oblio wrote: post #222
goodpoint wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2 major GUI toolkits, ... multiple DEs, frequent upgrades to them, also with breaking changes, a full decades of bickering I was using Linux desktops 20 years ago and the same arguments were made. They were FUD and they still are. 1) having "too much" choice is nothing to complain about. 2) if you are a beginner, pick a stable distribution and your desktop will be completely immune to churn. Use it as a productivit…

> They were FUD and they still are. Sorry, but take the horse blinders off. If this kind of criticism coming from a long time user of Linux desktop (not as active nowadays because work is Windows, but most of my work is done in IDEs, browsers and through Cygwin anyway), FOSS supporter, etc is FUD, then boy, are you going to have a hard time fighting Microsoft's or Apple's marketing teams. > 3) if you are not a beginn…

What part of "pick a stable distribution" you did not understand?

There's a good number of large tech companies providing Linux desktops for both tech-savy and other employees and it just works.

> Sorry, but take the horse blinders off.

Horse blinders? Ironic given how you looked only at half a sentence and ignored the rest.

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