Don't Call Yourself a Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#261

Post by xiaoma » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 6:27 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #123

freemarketteddy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect...I think that the factor we are trying to maximize is not money...It is overall life satisfaction and happiness as a hacker. Personally I would choose 80K a year building my own awesome apps ,making a name for myself,travelling the world ,meeting awesome people than making 200K at xyz corp where I spend my day exchanging bullshit emails with upper management.

I'm very, very sympathetic about those goals. :) Please do more research about the app market. Most people will not achieve $80k or anything close to it as independent app developers. I wish you every success.

I deal with app developers every day. I read a feed of iTunes store rankings regularly in the course of what I do. 80K is not an extremely rare level of success. In fact, even one of my old college buddies with a total MS-stack background has eclipsed it.

I'm not really in a position to share details, but for A-level geeks, there is much, much more than 100-200k to be made. It's true that most people won't achieve that. Much like 90% of sales-people's income are at sub-median levels, it's closer to a power distribution than a gaussian one.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#262

Post by cek » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 6:29 PM UTC

My favorite from this article: Networking: it isn’t just for TCP packets.

Seriously, get out there and grow your network. Do it by getting over being shy and smile more. Ask how you can help others. And ask for nothing in return. You will be shocked (over time) by how much you actually get back.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#263

Post by Ygor » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 6:34 PM UTC

Paul Graham, Computer Programmer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_%28computer_program...

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#264

Post by guard-of-terra » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 11:12 PM UTC

scottschulthess wrote: post #176

emmett wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't take this the wrong way, but ... really? I find that hard to believe. Pretty much all programming is in the short term unemployment producing, since pretty much all programming is automation. Automating a job means that no one does it anymore, hence one fewer job. In the long run those people are usually repurposed into productive work, and there are occasional moments where a programmer will create a massive n…

There are types of programming that create jobs, but you're right, most of them eliminate jobs while making the rich (owners of our companies) richer. Which kind of sucks if you think about it. The programming that creates job is the kind that sells to consumers. Pretty much any consumer product will create jobs. B2B will eliminate jobs. Most programming is B2B (I think...) because it's easier to take money from othe…

As pg pointed out, everybody should be concerned with creating more wealth instead of creating more jobs.

There are economies where are a lot of jobs (low unemployment) but very few wealth and it doesn't seem to stick regardless of what they do. You probably don't want that.

As long as you do your job of creating wealth you can hope somebody else to work at improving wealth distribution process.

Most of programming either creates wealth or conserves wealth, which is a good thing.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#265

Post by sampsonjs » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 11:52 PM UTC

Excuse me, but the company decides what the titles for positions are, not the applicants. And I'm sure no one with "Software Engineer" in their title ever got laid off. "But the article is really telling you to pick a job where you'll be considered King Shit!". Thanks for that great advice.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#266

Post by ajtaylor » Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 1:22 AM UTC

miles_matthias wrote: post #223

ajtaylor wrote: post #132

Patrick has some great advice. I'll add my own anecdote: earlier this year I had an interview which required taking a plane. I decided to wear my suit on the plane, and it was an entirely new experience. I can't put my finger on exactly what it was, but the people simply seemed nicer, more pleasant and accommodating. If you want people to think of you as a professional, dressing the part certainly helps.

I hate the fact that people get treated differently because of what they wear. It's ridiculous and unfair, but that is reality. And that's one of the biggest things I took from this piece: Yea, it all sucks and is ridiculous most of the time, but it's the way the game is played. Play it or get left behind.

It's definitely a game. One that's rigged (and not in your favor), but you better do your best or you might not get a second chance.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#267

Post by impendia » Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 1:59 AM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #258

impendia wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a startup for 2 1/2 years, quit, went to grad school in math, did a postdoc, and am now a professor. For me it was a wonderful choice. I didn't like the startup work for precisely the reasons patio sort of hints at. Our business was primarily about making money, and we had to focus on what customers actually wanted rather than what (I thought) would be most interesting, most challenging, or most elegant.…

I'm glad to hear it's great for you. Being a tenured professor in a field with low overhead is great. However: The median undergraduate won't get to be a prof. The median grad student won't get to be a prof, however much they might wish to. In physics the median postdoc won't make it to prof. Too many postdocs. Not enough new profs. I went to a top grad school and made a bunch of friends. Of all my Ph.D.-holding frie…

Thanks! I will have fun.

Is it different (in math)? Yes and no. There are a bunch of jobs teaching low-level courses (often 3 or 4 a semester) at teaching colleges, most of them in isolated locations, where little or no research gets done. Some people are happy to accept these, some don't want to and take industry jobs. I teach at the University of South Carolina, and with rare exceptions, our Ph.D. graduates work at these kinds of places.

I don't know how other fields are, but it is typically predictable how well grad students will do. I think grad students usually know if they have a reasonable shot at making it big (or semi-big as in my case) halfway through grad school, so they don't have to go through eight years of crap to find out.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#268

Post by zasz » Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 7:44 AM UTC

chc wrote: post #89

zasz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose the OP leaves. It's going to be hard for the his former coworkers to maintain the Ruby app.

Maybe "one-off" means something different where you're from, but I read it as meaning this wasn't an issue.

A classic mistake people make is assuming that something isn't an issue, when the other party DOES think it is an issue.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#269

Post by Daniel_Newby » Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 9:27 AM UTC

scottschulthess wrote: post #177

wallflower wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I mean legally , I mean to protect the company against being sued for firing you. Yes, there are cases where there are immediate terminations. PP assist in the less egregious cases where there is gray areas. In fact, you can argue that the entire point of an HR department is to protect the company from getting sued.

It depends on the state. You can't (successfully) sue a company in Massachusetts (like California) for any reason besides discrimination. They don't need to give a reason why they fire/lay you off. They just fire you and that's how it goes. Not all states are like this.

> You can't (successfully) sue a company in Massachusetts (like California) for any reason besides discrimination.

Being fired while belonging to an Identified Minority is harassment and discrimination unless done according to a documented failure of a Personal Improvement Plan.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#270

Post by miker64 » Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 3:09 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #186

div wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may disagree with those views, but if they are predominant among the people who have final say in hiring you, and at what salary, then the advice is good. The whole point of the article is to force a typical engineer to look at how most of the world perceives him, and work with that. If you have to talk to another engineer as part of a hiring process, talk all the shop you want. If you're talking to business peop…

You may disagree with those views, but if they are predominant among the people who have final say in hiring you, and at what salary, then the advice is good. Are they, though? I can see they might be if you're in consulting (as the author of this post appears to be), but I've never heard of an interview at somewhere like Google or Intel that wants to hear you talk about Providing Value; they want to know your techni…

No, the technical interviewers want to know your technical skills, because they advise the people who pull the trigger on your hiring whether you will provide value. Now, it's been a while, but my Google interview involved straight technical interviews and several interviews that were less about technical detail and far more about discerning my longer term value to the company.