Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 381 posts

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#341

Post by notch656a »

JaimeThompson wrote: post #323
notch656a wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You haven't actually been poor like that in the US. That isn't a question, it is a statement. I have as have others I know so yes even a few dollars per day can make/break the budget. I don't know how poor you have been or are. And you don't know how poor I have been either. I'm not going to play oppression olympics with you. I have been homeless, sleeping in ditches and parks before, living off of minimum wage day…

> I'm not going to play oppression olympics with you. That wasn't my point. Honestly please take a look at your interaction with me and reflect on it, it isn't necessary to engage in such a hostile fashion. You have read a lot into what I have written that simply isn't there. You have a pleasant rest of your day.

You have read a lot into what I have written that simply isn't there. It's not a good look to clam up and play the victim when called out on your presumptuous and contradictory statements, including your assuming the economic background of someone based on a short dialogue. Remember just one post ago you found it completely valid to retort about how I "haven't actually been poor like that" and how you have.

Please take a look at your interaction with me and reflect on it, and think to yourself about how you can be less presumptuous.

>You have a pleasant rest of your day.

Likewise!

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#342

Post by notch656a »

SigmundA wrote: post #332
notch656a wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm opposed to tax funded police, roads, and schools. If you want to create a roads charity, by all mean I'm fine with that. Sometimes tax payers are funding their own expense, sometimes not. What I take issue with is being involuntarily compelled to pay someone else's expense at gunpoint.

Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent, either pay it or get out. You don't fully own the property you live on even if it's paid off, it is the soil of the country you live in, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck.

>Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay.

OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint?

>you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay.

That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. The US, and I believe Eritrea, are the only two nation's I'm aware of in the world like that. Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. The US has been known to engage in "extraordinary rendition" which is to say they target/extract citizens even out of countries when there is no legal mechanism for them to do so.

In short your claim here is incredibly innacurate.

>Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent

When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing.

>, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck.

You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." You're starting to look like a violent person. It's really comical how quickly the façade drops of persons such as yourself who turn out to be persons of great violence who are quick to challenge others to engage in such activity.

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#343

Post by kcplate »

elhudy wrote: post #339
rayiner wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume you would have gotten authorized for a hip replacement at all? Many elective qualify of life surgeries aren’t covered in European health care systems. Look, there is no free lunch. The UK NHS has strict standards of “cost effectiveness” that would shock Americans: https://www.nice.org.uk/media/default/guidance/lgb10-briefin... . 20-30,000 pounds per quality adjusted life year. American end of life c…

> A friend of the family was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given six months to live. She received treatment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, and lived almost two years. In European systems she would have been sent into hospice I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted, this seems factual. It’s also the part of the problem that’s never discussed - the big cancerous whale in the room. Culturally, Americans…

> I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted, this seems factual.

I’ll make a guess at why. Because some folks in the US who want universal healthcare have a misunderstanding of what that actually means to make it affordable. Any comment criticizing or expressing what might be perceived as negative of any aspect of “European style healthcare” (as if that is a singular thing) will get downvoted by these folks. They have a belief that the level of end of life care most folks currently receive in the US will continue. Their 89 year old grandmothers with cancer are still going to get experimental and expensive chemotherapy all the way up to her dying breath.

And don’t you dare suggest that she is not!

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#344

Post by notch656a »

namdnay wrote: post #172
notch656a wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just redistributing the cost across the population? I think then you just end up with more people in debt, as their incomes fall to pay the tax.

except that you redistribute according to means, seeing as tax is correlated to income. so instead of having a random dice roll ("ah, you're working multiple low-hour jobs and you just got cancer? game over!"), you pay a bit more of your income as tax

I'll take the random dice roll and my tax money.

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#345

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

notch656a wrote: post #322
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My tax money goes to schools that I don't send children to. My tax money goes to building roads that I won't drive on. My tax money goes to police dealing with crimes I'm not a victim of. Do you consider EVERYTHING funded by tax payers to be the result of people "work for free to cover someone else's expenses"?

I'm opposed to tax funded police, roads, and schools. If you want to create a roads charity, by all mean I'm fine with that. Sometimes tax payers are funding their own expense, sometimes not. What I take issue with is being involuntarily compelled to pay someone else's expense at gunpoint.

Ah, there it is. The actual argument you wanted to make is the whole "taxation is theft" baloney.

I don't waste my time talking to people with that excessively naive viewpoint. Have a good day.

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#347

Post by 1111567893 »

jioujoijoijoi wrote: post #57
thomasjudge wrote: post #46

Unfortunately a majority of voters in this country reject single-payer coverage on the grounds that it is "socialist"

Nothing is outlawing liberal states from doing it.

Without every state agreeing to it, you end up with a race to the bottom.

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#348

Post by sterlind »

kcplate wrote: post #343
elhudy wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A friend of the family was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given six months to live. She received treatment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, and lived almost two years. In European systems she would have been sent into hospice I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted, this seems factual. It’s also the part of the problem that’s never discussed - the big cancerous whale in the room. Culturally, Americans…

> I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted, this seems factual. I’ll make a guess at why. Because some folks in the US who want universal healthcare have a misunderstanding of what that actually means to make it affordable. Any comment criticizing or expressing what might be perceived as negative of any aspect of “European style healthcare” (as if that is a singular thing) will get downvoted by these folks. They have…

why can't the 89-year old grandmother get supplemental insurance that covers the fancy therapies?

I don't buy that there's no way to get people state-covered insulin and chemo without consigning everyone to bread lines. just make Medicare universal, and let people buy BCBS or Kaiser etc. on top, to skip the lines or cover more end of life stuff.

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#349

Post by 1111567893 »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #38
lotsofpulp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of voting for taxpayer funded healthcare, or any other broad population wide benefit program / tax increase, it would be inaccurate to label Manchin and Sinema as Democrats. Same as when Affordable Care Act was being molded, a couple of “Democrat” senators like Leiberman sank any chance a taxpayer funded option. Just like Manchin and Sinema sank Biden’s universal preschool/daycare and paid parental lea…

Eh, both Manchin and Sinema self-identify as democracts, which some argue is all you really need these days. More importantly to me, however, if we rely on actions and not words, they consciously elect to remain members of Democractic party ( as opposed to say.. being Republican, Independent, Green or whatever ). For all practical reporting purposes, they are Democracts. The moment you apply 'but they voted for X', y…

> Eh, both Manchin and Sinema self-identify as democracts, which some argue is all you really need these days.

When you speak with disdain and sarcasm, no one will listen to what you have to say even when you are right about everything.

If you want to change minds, show respect first, clarify the opponent's best argument, and then take it apart calmly piece by piece.

If, instead, you want to spread anger and frustration from yourself to those around you, by all means continue with the snide comments.

Re: Sick and struggling to pay, 100M people in the U.S. live with medical debt

#350

Post by notch656a »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #345
notch656a wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm opposed to tax funded police, roads, and schools. If you want to create a roads charity, by all mean I'm fine with that. Sometimes tax payers are funding their own expense, sometimes not. What I take issue with is being involuntarily compelled to pay someone else's expense at gunpoint.

Ah, there it is. The actual argument you wanted to make is the whole "taxation is theft" baloney. I don't waste my time talking to people with that excessively naive viewpoint. Have a good day.

What's "excessively naive" is to act like you're not suggesting people work for free, when indeed you are. You're simply performing a sleight of hand: instead of framing it as the doctor working for free, you shift the free labor onto mostly people making a lesser income. You sir/mam, are both deceptive and disingenuous.

>The actual argument you wanted to make

And how incredibly good faith of you to bring up taxation of roads, school, and police and then have the gall to act like it's a waste to discuss the very subject YOU YOURSELF INTRODUCED. My brother, I did not mention anything about the taxation of roads/police/schools until you brought it up, it's beginning to look like that's the real argument YOU wanted to introduce.

Post reply on HN