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What we learned in studying the most effective founders

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Re: What we learned in studying the most effective founders

#51
post #31

I'm honestly more interested in studying the most ineffective founders. We spend too much time focusing on survivors, when I feel like the best learning comes from looking at failure. I'd be willing to be there's a lot of failed / failing companies out there doing the exact same thing as the "most effective founders", so what makes them different? I'd be interested to know.

Maybe not the most ineffective but it would probably be good to rank factors by most likely to sink your business.

Re: What we learned in studying the most effective founders

#52
post #14

Self help pablum for aspiring founders. I'll just highlight a couple of the ridiculous things in there. "Minimize unnecessary micromanagement". There's just a ton in there. First, micromanagement already has a negative connotation so recommending to minimize it rather than eliminate it is just an obnoxious hedge. Then it doubles down on recommending minimizing only "unnecessary" micromanagement. You just go right ahe…

> [...] ie. "I don't really care what you have to say other than how it hits my bottom line but go on talking. I'll let you know if I think you say something worthwhile"

The article is about "effective founders", not about "nice persons". If being an insensitive cunt made you a better founder, then that would be an important datapoint worth knowing about. So I don't know why you're criticizing this part of the article.

Re: What we learned in studying the most effective founders

#53
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as: "Dont pay them the market rate, squeeze them like lemons - and make them earn peanuts, for the grand vision of getting equity later". Like in those sweatshops in third world countries. (Although sweatshops dont give equity) So 60-70 hour weeks. Does this work in Silicon Valley?

This is a pretty negative take. Have you done work out of a sense of purpose rather than for just a salary? It's about treating people like they have personal interest in the mission of the organization and working towards a common purpose. And not to treat them like your personal wage servants.

Most of my work is done out of sense of purpose. A lot of things I do are good, while they could be half-assed (and I know that other half ass them - e.g. shoddy work inherited from my predecessors). I have situations where I did work that is solid and hasnt been reviewed by anyone since they trust me (what is probably a bad business practice, but that is irrelevant for this discussion).

I had to write this long introduction because you started name calling. Apparently everyone who doesnt want to work in sweatshop like conditions only works for a salary. Maybe this is news for you, but most people want an easy job that treats them well. But treating employees well (e.g. fancy office in trendy part of town, cool company swag with logos) is not really aligned with the priorities of a cash starved startup. The startup probably should try to cut its expenses to the bone and focus on necessities - by for example running first from a garage, or a home. It is very likely that the startup will pivot its business model few times before it becomes cash positive, so it should try to limit cash outflows as much as possible (even just to survive for the next round). Yes, there are startups that become cash positive fast (what is probably great way of doing business), but it is relatively rare. Most start ups need to survive few lean years. Although there are obviously companies made to grow as much as possible and sell the bag (of shit) to some bagholders - their CEOs focus most on marketing than building a product that actually works. Every start-up is after all a promise - we need your cash now, that we will translate into a successful equity later.

But coming back to the alignment between what companies/start-ups wand and what employees want - they want different things. Companies mostly want to generate cash (or the owners want to sell the bag to someone else if they cannot generate cash), while employees want a nice salary. Yeah, some want to do impressive stuff, but most people dont. Those people who want a salary probably dont fit the start-up crowd anyway, but can you really tell? Squeezing some fresh grads like lemons in a start-up happens all the time. They just dont know better and accept the biggest sin of sweatshop-like companies: overtime.

Startups are known for overtime. If the leader can get some cult-like group who will sit 70 hours per week, then there is a bigger possibility of success than a start-up where workers work 40 hours. Although this is not an easy subject, because hours spent probably not always translate to effective hours. Someone can do 30 effective hours out of a 40 hour work week, while someone can have 50 hours out of 70. It is also possible that someone has 10 out of 70. But generally the overtime is sort of productive, even if this leads to burnt out employees, as I wrote before - those fresh grads are fueled by enthusiasm and dont know better. So a sociopath who will exploit them makes a great leader.

And mission of the organization is just to earn as much cash as possible for its owners and employees. Most companies dont have any real vision, it is some marketing bullshit (for start-ups), or something done by consultants on a corporate retreat. Even in a startup most employees probably dont know the vision. Or they are smart enough to know it, but do they believe in it? If your start-up is rewriting Excel pivot tables in Rust, is there really some grand vision? "We are building revolutionary product that will ease up lives of many people". Seriously, take the vision of one company and apply it into another - often it works. And I dont say that lack of vision is bad. But most companies just want to make the top product that is the first choice for customers. This means happy customers and money for the company. Rest of this is just marketing trying to build some sort of a cult. Unless your startup plants trees in Amazon or cures cancer, the vision is just to be a successful company. Obviously you cannot tell that to people, a good CEO is supposed to do the dance and create a whole brand (preferably out of nothing - because there is no money for marketing). Probably easier to sell bullshit if you believe in it, but at the end of the day is still bullshit. I also have to sell bullshit from time to time (everyone who manages people does), but at least I know that it is bullshit. And yeah, I know the mission of my organization, it actually makes a lot of sense, but still it is just bullshit used to hide the real reason why the company operates - to earn cash for owners and (to some degree) employees. If you earn doing something that is good, then even better, but come on - how many Jupiter notebooks can you rewrite in Go and will your C++ uber for pets will be really revolutionary?

If you take CEO A, who builds this hypothetical uber for pets and sells some bull that makes the employees work 70 hours per week and compare to CEO B, who makes them work 40 hours, the first one will probably be more successful. At the few year time frames (life before a start-up succeeds or fails), the employees from company A will probably not burn out, while company B can burn out its cash reserves and have no product.

Re: What we learned in studying the most effective founders

#55
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as: "Dont pay them the market rate, squeeze them like lemons - and make them earn peanuts, for the grand vision of getting equity later". Like in those sweatshops in third world countries. (Although sweatshops dont give equity) So 60-70 hour weeks. Does this work in Silicon Valley?

>I read it as: "Dont pay them the market rate, squeeze them like lemons - and make them earn peanuts, for the grand vision of getting equity later". In what context are volunteers treated like that?

Volunteers work for free also usually there are too few of them (there can be lots of "volunteers" but only few are contributing, so they are overworked).

Re: What we learned in studying the most effective founders

#56
post #31

I'm honestly more interested in studying the most ineffective founders. We spend too much time focusing on survivors, when I feel like the best learning comes from looking at failure. I'd be willing to be there's a lot of failed / failing companies out there doing the exact same thing as the "most effective founders", so what makes them different? I'd be interested to know.

Simple science: you need a control group. The whole "25 things that successful people do" completely ignores the entire question of whether unsuccessful people also do those things, and therefore whether those things have anything to do with success. Survivor bias is so prevalent in any thinking about "what makes someone successful?" that yes, it would be much more effective at this point to consider "what makes some…

> Simple science: you need a control group.

While controlled experiments are the ideal for hypothesis testing, as someone who does stats for a living it's worth point out observational studies do exist.

Entire fields, such as anthropology, depend entirely on observational statistics. The field has also come a tremendously long way in recent years with lots of very useful tools coming out of the Bayesian community (applying proper priors, multi-level modeling, inference on more complex models) and the causal inference community.

McElreath's Statistical Rethinking is a great text that deals mostly with what I would consider the current state of the art in observational techniques. Highly recommended if isn't already on your bookshelf.

Re: What we learned in studying the most effective founders

#58
post #14

Self help pablum for aspiring founders. I'll just highlight a couple of the ridiculous things in there. "Minimize unnecessary micromanagement". There's just a ton in there. First, micromanagement already has a negative connotation so recommending to minimize it rather than eliminate it is just an obnoxious hedge. Then it doubles down on recommending minimizing only "unnecessary" micromanagement. You just go right ahe…

What would you propose as an alternative? In an alternative universe, ZCW101 is complaining that they said "eliminate micromanagement" and that person is arguing that sometimes you simply have to micromanage and eliminating it is unrealistic but they should have said something about minimizing it. And then someone complains that some is necessary and you should only minimize the unnecessary parts. Anyway, my real poi…

When you need to project into an alternate universe you know you've got a weak argument. Micromanagement is a negative thing regardless of if you think the person needs and deserves it. You're not going to find anyone out there that says, "They really let me down. I mean I didn't want a lot of it but I didn't even get a little micromanagement. I'm really looking for this goldilocks micromanagement. Not too much, not too little, but just the right amount".

Re: What we learned in studying the most effective founders

#59
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty negative take. Have you done work out of a sense of purpose rather than for just a salary? It's about treating people like they have personal interest in the mission of the organization and working towards a common purpose. And not to treat them like your personal wage servants.

Most of my work is done out of sense of purpose. A lot of things I do are good, while they could be half-assed (and I know that other half ass them - e.g. shoddy work inherited from my predecessors). I have situations where I did work that is solid and hasnt been reviewed by anyone since they trust me (what is probably a bad business practice, but that is irrelevant for this discussion). I had to write this long intr…

Hacker News is backed by YC so expected that Hacker News community will be more biased towards start-up culture while your initial posts and subsequent comment just seems unbalanced towards negativity.

Not all start-ups are made equally; some probably have the abusive culture that you describe while others are more fair to their employees and have a more win-win outcome.

Re: What we learned in studying the most effective founders

#60
post #14

Self help pablum for aspiring founders. I'll just highlight a couple of the ridiculous things in there. "Minimize unnecessary micromanagement". There's just a ton in there. First, micromanagement already has a negative connotation so recommending to minimize it rather than eliminate it is just an obnoxious hedge. Then it doubles down on recommending minimizing only "unnecessary" micromanagement. You just go right ahe…

This is the software/IT industry where everyone talks about how you can be self made and degrees don't matter as much as skill and experience, right? Yet here you are dismissing this guy for whatever he studied in school. Other than that I completely agree with you

> This is the software/IT industry where everyone talks about how you can be self made and degrees don't matter as much as skill and experience, right? Yet here you are dismissing this guy for whatever he studied in school.

I'd pay for a reputation mapping service with a specific point of view. I'd pay for several of them if they were different enough.

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