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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

isdotnetopen.com

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#271

Post by cerved »

bob1029 wrote: post #250

.NET is the most open, non-trivial ecosystem I have ever participated in. I experienced 2 different problems with .NET (back in 2.x/3.x days), and was able to have interaction with the actual MS developers on their Github issue page without any sort of bullshit overhead process. Within days, I saw traction on my comments and within months I saw PRs that ultimately resolved the issue I presented. The following year, I…

being open is not about not paying but using it however you like, not constrained to VisualGarbage XYZ or Windows 15-xtra ultra edition

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#272

Post by pedro2 »

bob1029 wrote: post #250

.NET is the most open, non-trivial ecosystem I have ever participated in. I experienced 2 different problems with .NET (back in 2.x/3.x days), and was able to have interaction with the actual MS developers on their Github issue page without any sort of bullshit overhead process. Within days, I saw traction on my comments and within months I saw PRs that ultimately resolved the issue I presented. The following year, I…

We're talking about cognitive dissonance here. If Microsoft hadn't put out "Microsoft loves open-source" statements, then all this would be treated as business as usual.

However MS did. So people are dealing with the dissonance. Some people are being remembered how the strategy Embrace, Extend and Extinguish works.

TL;DR: the attitude MS is having is not open-source friendly.

NOTE: at least today they did state their plans from the start. Props to them.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#273

Post by brmgb »

elviejo wrote: post #177
blagie wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies aren't people. The set of people in Microsoft is completely different in 2022 than it was in 1995. A quarter-century has passed. It's not the same organization as it was back then. It has very little relationship to it. I've been consistently surprised by Microsoft doing non-evil things over the past decade, until I accepted that I no longer had reason to hate it. Conversely, for a while, I was surprised by…

Second the people selected for a company are selected based on their conformance to that companies culture. So even if not a single human in Microsoft is the same, the company culture is the there. This reminds me of an old story, might be fiction, that conveys the idea. five chimpanzees were put in a cage, bananas in the center everytime one tried to get a banana they would get cold water untill they simply stoped t…

> Second the people selected for a company are selected based on their conformance to that companies culture.

I would agree for most companies and it's probably true for Microsoft but that doesn't really apply to Google. Google is 23 years old. 20 years ago the people who wanted to work at Google were looking for a young fast-growing company shaking things up with its search engine, a heavy focus in engineering and opportunites everywhere. Nowadays, the people who want to work at Google want to work for one of the most prestigious tech company. That tends to attract a completely different kind of person.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#274

Post by josteink »

tsujp wrote: post #232

This is depressing. Last years `dotnet watch` and now this. I kind of went with the tide into the position I'm in (basically a C# developer for that side of my job) and as much as I was impressed with, "oh .NET is open source and cross platform now well done" and "oh, F# is a really nice language that can take advantage of the .NET ecosystem well done" it's things like THIS that make me want to run. I kind of want to…

> Why participate in an ecosystem where the biggest corporate overlord is trying to reduce your ability to _do things_.

For free.

If you pay, they’ll help you do more things.

That’s unfortunately the motivation a for-profit corporation has.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#275

Post by pedro2 »

fhkaQ wrote: post #162
thejosh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, they saw no real backlash to doing this for the Python one, then decided to do it here as well.

Of course not. Python is in the hands of people with a mixed contribution history (to say the least) who want to preserve their jobs at Google, Microsoft, RedHat etc. The rest of the Python "community" does as they are told. They are not in a position to voice dissent, unlike de Icaza, who has a great programming record and courage.

I sympathyze with Icaza because he does a lot of stuff.

His reaction is unexpected though -- after all this is the playbook FSF is always warning as a possible path. He must have been aware of the possible paths and the fear of them when Novell was trying to bring C# onto Linux / Gnome.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#276

Post by spaetzleesser »

Jemm wrote: post #236
alistairSH wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say companies are inherently amoral. Not evil. Subtle, but important nuance. It’s only when evil and greedy people are in charge that companies become evil. Sadly an all too common state of affairs, but not a law of the universe.

Corporations are sociopaths by their very design. Their number one mandate is to make money for their shareholders and to grow. This colours every decision they make.

It doesn't have to be like that. The focus on shareholders started sometime in the 80s.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#278

Post by uberman »

pmlnr wrote: post #263
someotherperson wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinions like this have always been weird to me. Not wrong, but weird. Any contribution that M$ (remember when people would sub the S for a dollar sign?) makes to open source or open standards is to support their own bottom line and we shouldn't expect anything else. The directors have a legal responsibility to the company and to boost the share price, not for the betterment of humanity. To this effect, companies wil…

> The directors have a legal responsibility [...] to boost the share price What?

It might be technically true that some deviation from maximizing investor return is not strictly against the law

However, there are several legal opinions that complicate this interpretation.

I recommend you read the case eBay v. Newmark that very much complicates this. Here is a nice summary:

https://www.litigationandtrial.com/2010/09/articles/series/s...

You might also look at Dodge v. Ford Motor Company one of the more in-famous cases supporting/complicating the shareholder value "requirement". In it's opinion, the Michigan Supreme Court in-famously states: "A business corporation is organized and carried on primarily for the profit of the stockholders."

Both cases deal with companies will very small numbers of shareholders where minority shareholders successfully litigated based on some argument that the majority had a responsibility to maximize their minority returns.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#279

Post by lostmsu »

dustinmoris wrote: post #114

As I have said it on the original GitHub issue, there are multiple reasons for why the lives of .NET developers will always suck. First of all every division at Microsoft needs to be cash positive. At DevDiv (developer devision) the main bread maker is Visual Studio. .NET is free and makes no money. VS Code is free and makes no money. OmniSharp is/was free and made no money. ASP.NET is free and makes no money. It's m…

Personally, my life as .NET developer has always been great since .NET Framework 2.0. I tried multiple other ecosystems and the pasture in .NET has always been greener for my purposes. There are no better refactoring + debugging tools anywhere.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#280

Post by bogwog »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #6

I love C#, had a job doing it on Mono and really enjoyed working on it, but never trusted to work on anything personal with it, in order to avoid being stuck depending on Microsoft since they bought Xamarin, and I resisted even when they published ASP.Net Core on github, really think that microsoft is un-trustable

> really think that microsoft is un-trustable

The only thing you can trust Microsoft on is their commitment to fuck over their customers and partners.

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