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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#251

Post by ethbr0 »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #204
elviejo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second the people selected for a company are selected based on their conformance to that companies culture. So even if not a single human in Microsoft is the same, the company culture is the there. This reminds me of an old story, might be fiction, that conveys the idea. five chimpanzees were put in a cage, bananas in the center everytime one tried to get a banana they would get cold water untill they simply stoped t…

Exactly. Corporations are Ships of Theseus. Even if you change top leadership, the Board is still the same, and looking for the basically same kind of people.

That's... not the analogy.

The Ship of Theseus is a question about the nature of identity, not an answer.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#252

Post by meragrin_ »

exyi wrote: post #58
oaiey wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web page is FUD, but the GitHub issue is describing yet another top level management decision which is totally not helpful source code wise and reputation wise. Creating a bridging host component for tools with multiple intellisense or debugging providers is okay, but the host must be open source to control what is happening. This is a strategic move to unify VS and VS Code ... And the open source debacle is the…

If they want to unify and not just have more control over the ecosystem, why not unify them over OmniSharp or other open LSP?

I don't think it is to unify. I wouldn't be surprised if it would be another revenue source. People may prefer the interface of VS Code, but prefer the backend tools in VS. Microsoft could end up selling plugins/add-ons/whatever for VS Code.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#253

Post by cmiles74 »

dustinmoris wrote: post #114

As I have said it on the original GitHub issue, there are multiple reasons for why the lives of .NET developers will always suck. First of all every division at Microsoft needs to be cash positive. At DevDiv (developer devision) the main bread maker is Visual Studio. .NET is free and makes no money. VS Code is free and makes no money. OmniSharp is/was free and made no money. ASP.NET is free and makes no money. It's m…

I have also suspected that the big conflict here is between Visual Studio and Code. For sure, there is a free version of Visual Studio, but I would bet most for-profit businesses are paying for Visual Studio licenses. I could believe that there's a fear that Code will cannibalize Visual Studio sales.

Is this fear valid? I'm not so sure, the developers that I've worked with that used Visual Studio were not interested in alternatives. But I can easily imagine a new developer choosing to stick with Code 'cause that's what they've been using for their other projects instead of downloading Visual Studio.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#254

Post by cachvico »

davedx wrote: post #219
someotherperson wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comes across as a straw-man. The myth from the linked article is that they should maximize share price "even if this means skirting ethical rules, damaging the environment or harming employees." Agreed, this is a myth. But nobody said they need to break the law, or hurt employees. Given the constraints of the law, they have a single mission of maximizing the share price. Which is exactly what Microsoft and other…

He provided a citation. Please provide one to back up your argument

It's an opinion piece. Citation implies academic paper. Not quite the same.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#255

Post by Ygg2 »

bayindirh wrote: post #231
Ygg2 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a "grass is greener over the fence" perspective. Not really. Just because neighbors grass is greener, doesn't mean Linux grass isn't a black wilting mess. > So, after some time it's borderline nitpicking IMHO. Example of "nitpicking" I/colleagues ran into: Multi monitor support, HDR, DE bricking after update. And due to Linux fractious nature even if one distro fixed it, another would still have that issue.…

> Not really. Just because neighbors grass is greener, doesn't mean Linux grass isn't a black wilting mess. Linux's grass was a much darker green in the past, but wasn't black, neither back then, nor now. > Multi monitor support Just plugged a secondary monitor into one of my colleagues Linux box a week ago, a second desktop appeared three seconds later. Used two monitors for 6 years, until 6 years ago. It was workin…

> Just plugged a secondary monitor into one of my colleagues

Sure. And I had encountered it - from just not registering, it being "there" despite being unplugged. And it randomizing windows on plugging in.

Using Linux always feels like fighting uphill battle with gremlins.

> Don't have an HDR panel, can't say a word about it, but VLC handles HDR-SDR conversion just fine.

Pity, really.

Neither Weyland nor X.org support it. Amazing, another fork in the road.

> My current MacBook Pro bricked after an OS update, because of a bug in an OpenVPN

That's different. This was post install update. Clean machine.

I ran into similar issue that bit Linus from. Linus Tech Tips.

I updated pop_OS! on fresh install and bang! Welcome console my old friend.

I remember Linux 15 years ago and it was even worse. But just because it got better doesn't mean it's good.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#256

Post by yyyk »

oxfordmale wrote: post #179
qayxc wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP seems to be oblivious to actual stats [0]. Last year, Azure was the 2nd biggest player in cloud computing, being "only" 2/3 of AWS' market share, but still having more than 3x the market share of the next biggest competitor (Google). Indeed hardly something I'd call "struggling". [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1202770/hyperscaler-iaas...

I can't remember the source, however, I believe Microsoft is overstating the usage of Azure as a cloud computing platform. For example Office 365 is hosted on Azure and counted towards the cloud computing figure.

That may have been true in the past, but definitely not these days. MS separates Office 365 sales from Azure sales in its reports (e.g. [0]).

[0] https://news.microsoft.com/2021/07/27/microsoft-cloud-streng...

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#257

Post by josteink »

exyi wrote: post #83
mmgutz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did JetBrains open source their debugger?

No, they are equally "guilty". At least they don't brag how OSS friendly they are. There is open source debugger from Samsung ( https://github.com/Samsung/netcoredbg/ ), but it does not see much use.

> There is open source debugger from Samsung (https://github.com/Samsung/netcoredbg/), but it does not see much use.

If you want to debug C# from Emacs, it’s the only choice AFAIK.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#258

Post by meragrin_ »

oleksandr_kot wrote: post #17

I've been using Omnisharp-VsCode extension for years on my daily job. It's far from ideal, especially the initial setup experience. I think here's what's going on: It appears VS Code is Microsoft's main IDE and C# is the main language. Not surprised they decided to obtain more control over the integration to improve the experience. In terms of management, it's always easier to cut all the external dependencies (commu…

I think VS Code was supposed to be a "gateway drug" to VS. It's not turning out that way. If they can't get the users to go full VS, they probably have an idea they can sell some of the backend stuff, but they can't right now since there is not a way to plug it in. OmniSharp is probably going to remain the default, but MS is betting a number of people will pony up for better(their) backends.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#259

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

blagie wrote: post #156
kelnos wrote: post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

Companies aren't people. The set of people in Microsoft is completely different in 2022 than it was in 1995. A quarter-century has passed. It's not the same organization as it was back then. It has very little relationship to it. I've been consistently surprised by Microsoft doing non-evil things over the past decade, until I accepted that I no longer had reason to hate it. Conversely, for a while, I was surprised by…

It amazes me that literal generations can pass and people assume the tone and nature of a company won't change. Honestly, at this time Microsoft is doing some pretty great stuff with embarrassing the open source community and free solutions. That could change but right now I like it.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#260

Post by DeathArrow »

Ygg2 wrote: post #117
oblio wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> trying to isolate Desktop Linux as an irrelevant layer They're obviously doing that, but they don't really need to. Desktop Linux is its own enemy. 2 major GUI toolkits, frequent upgrades to them, generally with breaking changes, multiple DEs, frequent upgrades to them, also with breaking changes, a full decades of bickering over a solution that solves actual end user and operator problems in a standardizing way (s…

> I'm willing to bet $100 that this discussion will look the same way in 15 years I'm willing to take it, but only because I think there won't be a Linux in 15 years. And yeah. Android doesn't count. It's essentially an enclave that runs Dalvik programs. Linux basic assumptions about hardware don't hold on mobile. I think Linux is suffering from the Lisp curse. Because they never choosed a DE, there is endless splint…

>I think Linux is suffering from the Lisp curse. Because they never choosed a DE, there is endless splintering and re-invention of the wheel.

But who is "they", Linux the OS doesn't exist as Linux is just a kernel. There are countless distributions that assemble operating systems from parts, throwing GNU userland on top of Linux kernel and other bits of software on top of the GNU userland and the kernel.

FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD are operating systems, the developers do both the kernel and the userland.

In the early days of PC BSD I've tried to kickstart a new DE, just for PC BSD to break free from the rest of open source operating systems, and to have an UI that only work on PC BSD, is consistent - the same way Windows and macOS have their UI layers. And I failed at it, because I am human and I need to earn a living.

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