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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#221

Post by Ygg2 »

bayindirh wrote: post #190
Ygg2 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every DE to behave the same where it matters. Sure. Except the end user won't care. As end user I don't see it implements DS. I see that KDE has bug A and Gnome has bug B. Or KDE has feature C that Gnome doesn't have, and vice versa. All in all as user. No DE fits me because bugs and features are scattered around. E.g. Haiku did it right. You don't get to choose. It's baked into the OS

> I see that KDE has bug A and Gnome has bug B. Or KDE has feature C that Gnome doesn't have, and vice versa. All in all as user. No DE fits me because bugs and features are scattered around. This is a "grass is greener over the fence" perspective. You can install apps for missing functionality or report bugs for the things you don't like. Except, Windows and macOS doesn't care about your bug reports, and some of the…

> This is a "grass is greener over the fence" perspective.

Not really. Just because neighbors grass is greener, doesn't mean Linux grass isn't a black wilting mess.

> So, after some time it's borderline nitpicking IMHO.

Example of "nitpicking" I/colleagues ran into: Multi monitor support, HDR, DE bricking after update.

And due to Linux fractious nature even if one distro fixed it, another would still have that issue.

Stuff that never happened to me with Windows/MacOS.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#222

Post by oblio »

goodpoint wrote: post #210
oblio wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> trying to isolate Desktop Linux as an irrelevant layer They're obviously doing that, but they don't really need to. Desktop Linux is its own enemy. 2 major GUI toolkits, frequent upgrades to them, generally with breaking changes, multiple DEs, frequent upgrades to them, also with breaking changes, a full decades of bickering over a solution that solves actual end user and operator problems in a standardizing way (s…

> 2 major GUI toolkits, ... multiple DEs, frequent upgrades to them, also with breaking changes, a full decades of bickering I was using Linux desktops 20 years ago and the same arguments were made. They were FUD and they still are. 1) having "too much" choice is nothing to complain about. 2) if you are a beginner, pick a stable distribution and your desktop will be completely immune to churn. Use it as a productivit…

> They were FUD and they still are.

Sorry, but take the horse blinders off.

If this kind of criticism coming from a long time user of Linux desktop (not as active nowadays because work is Windows, but most of my work is done in IDEs, browsers and through Cygwin anyway), FOSS supporter, etc is FUD, then boy, are you going to have a hard time fighting Microsoft's or Apple's marketing teams.

> 3) if you are not a beginner you should be able to maintain a desktop.

And therein lies the main rub :-)

Most people aren't able to "maintain a desktop". They don't really maintain either Windows, or MacOS. Most people are at best, "perpetual intermediates". Only a small fraction of users want or actually become power users. Most just trundle along trying their best to learn the least possible. And that's in every domain you can imagine.

This is the thing that will condemn Desktop Linux to being a niche product. That's fine, up to a point.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#223

Post by jsmeaton »

lin83 wrote: post #161
jsmeaton wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existing one was an open source Microsoft project. Then they built a new closed-source version as a replacement. To be fair, pylance is orders of magnitude better with regards to performance. But I just don’t get what the reasoning was to make pylance closed source. It’s baffling.

I believe the previous Python support extension started out as an independent open source project until Microsoft hired its main developer. > It’s baffling. Vendor Lock in? Same reason you can't use the VSCode marketplace of mostly open source extensions on a non-Microsoft build of VSCode or any of the remote work features.

The Python extension itself is not closed source and is still maintained by the original developer that MS hired. It’s the language server that went from an OSS Microsoft project (that replaced the initial Jedi server) to the closed source LSP server.

Lock in doesn’t make sense to me. The main competition is Pycharm which has its own set of tooling.

I can somewhat understand the remote extensions being closed source considering they need to interface with a server. It makes no sense for Python.

My guess is that Pylance is also used within Visual Studio proper, and the VS product owners are pushing for closed addons.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#224

Post by aljarry »

konsuko wrote: post #33

I can definitely say that for me, this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. I am turning my back on the .NET ecosystem, after having written C# for 7 years. The `dotnet watch` debacle from last year, still having key parts like the debugger closed-source and now again with this: It's just too much. I do not want to build anything of value on top of such a shady platform that's completely controlled by one Megac…

It's not only that debugger is closed-source - if you try to run non-MS provided build of VS Code, the .Net debugger would decline to start. That was very surprising, after installing VS Code on ubuntu from some default package.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#226

Post by qayxc »

oxfordmale wrote: post #179
qayxc wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP seems to be oblivious to actual stats [0]. Last year, Azure was the 2nd biggest player in cloud computing, being "only" 2/3 of AWS' market share, but still having more than 3x the market share of the next biggest competitor (Google). Indeed hardly something I'd call "struggling". [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1202770/hyperscaler-iaas...

I can't remember the source, however, I believe Microsoft is overstating the usage of Azure as a cloud computing platform. For example Office 365 is hosted on Azure and counted towards the cloud computing figure.

I can only cite sources. Disputing the numbers would have to be taken up with Statista and their sources, I can't comment on this.

The revenue chart looks more favourable for Microsoft (e.g. 20% share for Azure vs. 30% share for AWS), so maybe that's the data you have in mind?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#227

Post by withinboredom »

This assumes that the entire company is “in on it” when the simplest answer is that the devs who work there wanted something but the core IDE team couldn’t add it directly so told them to make an extension.

At least that’s how it usually works when you end up with something like this — I work at Automattic and when we want a new feature on WordPress.com, it usually starts as a plugin that gets activated on every site in a mandatory sort of way.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#228

Post by simonh »

legulere wrote: post #218
simonh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've bee caught using wood from companies logging illegally yes, but that's just as much an enforcement issue in these countries as it is on IKEA to manage it's supply chain. Also using tainted wood isn't the only thing IKEA has ever done, just as breaking the speed limit or parking illegally isn't he only thing I've ever done. If you were held to a "one strike and you're out" good/evil standard would you really s…

Intermediaries are often just an easy way to get out of liability. It can happen to small companies that you don't know about or are powerless to your supplier's illegal practices. With big companies you know and have the power, which makes it your responsibility and you being part of the problem. There's also a trend to give big companies liability for their supply chains. Germany just enacted a supply chain law las…

Yep, that's fair enough. I don't buy "therefore evil" though, companies like the people they are composed of are complicated.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#229

Post by alistairSH »

someotherperson wrote: post #71
kelnos wrote: post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

Opinions like this have always been weird to me. Not wrong, but weird. Any contribution that M$ (remember when people would sub the S for a dollar sign?) makes to open source or open standards is to support their own bottom line and we shouldn't expect anything else. The directors have a legal responsibility to the company and to boost the share price, not for the betterment of humanity. To this effect, companies wil…

I’d say companies are inherently amoral. Not evil. Subtle, but important nuance. It’s only when evil and greedy people are in charge that companies become evil. Sadly an all too common state of affairs, but not a law of the universe.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#230

Post by snovv_crash »

square_usual wrote: post #148
p1necone wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're spending up the wazoo on Xbox, still, to battle PlayStation. Microsofts decision to release all of their new XBox games on PC was kinda bizarre to me. It basically guarantees the XBox as a gaming console is going to lose market share to the PlayStation and eventually die out because the core gaming market is going to pick PC + PS5 + Switch (or some subset of those) as the sensible combo to be able to play a…

Then why is Sony heavily emphasizing PC too?

Maybe it is due to hardware supply chain shortages, since they make their money from the game sales anyways.
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