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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#191

Post by exyi »

adli89 wrote: post #95
littlecranky67 wrote: post #82

I don't understand the fuzz about it. There are a lot of commercial/closed-source devtools out there (IntelliJ, Rider) for otherwise open languages/platforms that devs are obviously happy to use and pay for. We are not demanding that every Java/Python/PHP etc. tool is open source and free, why is there this double-standard for Microsoft?

Because Microsoft claims they love open source, apparently they are not allowed to do anything closed source, ever.

Look, nobody complains about Visual Studio.

People get angry when suffocate existing tools with their free and "open source looking" alternatives. Ask Python devs if they think that their VSCode extension is open ... Even I thought it was open yesterday, turns out it's not and they pretty much removed support Jedi, the acutally open language server.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#192

Post by doliveira »

blagie wrote: post #156
kelnos wrote: post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

Companies aren't people. The set of people in Microsoft is completely different in 2022 than it was in 1995. A quarter-century has passed. It's not the same organization as it was back then. It has very little relationship to it. I've been consistently surprised by Microsoft doing non-evil things over the past decade, until I accepted that I no longer had reason to hate it. Conversely, for a while, I was surprised by…

That would be true if everyone were replaced at once. Culture lingers on otherwise.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#193

Post by exyi »

klysm wrote: post #136
unhammer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is `dotnet watch` basically `git ls-files|entr dotnet build` ? (entr is http://eradman.com/entrproject/ – like inotifywait but easier)

It may as well be. It can do some legit hot reload, but the set of scenarios where it works is so small it’s effectively useless.

Yea, the drama occurred when it was in preview, so we all thought it's going to have real hot-reload capability as we know from webdev.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#194

Post by yccs27 »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #66

Is this not pretty close to: "core open source" model that a lot of the open source projects featured on HN has adopted? They give you access to a lot of things for free, and then they offer proprietary solutions on top of that. and if they follow the pattern maybe they will start charging or some proprietary features.

They are free to offer their own proprietary VS Code extension, likely no one would have a problem with that. What is very objectionable is the way they are trying to destroy and replace the existing FOSS OmniSharp extension!

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#196

Post by blackoil »

p1necone wrote: post #123
headmelted wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what's more likely in this case is that MS under Satya really does want to be a good corporate citizen, but are finding themselves in a bind that threatens the whole organisation. They're spending up the wazoo on Xbox, still, to battle PlayStation. They were supposed to have conquered that market over 15 years ago and are still throwing money at it. Windows is hurting as a retail business. License costs have…

> They're spending up the wazoo on Xbox, still, to battle PlayStation. Microsofts decision to release all of their new XBox games on PC was kinda bizarre to me. It basically guarantees the XBox as a gaming console is going to lose market share to the PlayStation and eventually die out because the core gaming market is going to pick PC + PS5 + Switch (or some subset of those) as the sensible combo to be able to play a…

You are overestimating the overlap between PC and XBox for gaming and profits in selling the console. XBox buyers are looking for a cheap appliance while PC users are ready to invest lot more in both time and money.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#197

Post by sabas123 »

elviejo wrote: post #177
blagie wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies aren't people. The set of people in Microsoft is completely different in 2022 than it was in 1995. A quarter-century has passed. It's not the same organization as it was back then. It has very little relationship to it. I've been consistently surprised by Microsoft doing non-evil things over the past decade, until I accepted that I no longer had reason to hate it. Conversely, for a while, I was surprised by…

Second the people selected for a company are selected based on their conformance to that companies culture. So even if not a single human in Microsoft is the same, the company culture is the there. This reminds me of an old story, might be fiction, that conveys the idea. five chimpanzees were put in a cage, bananas in the center everytime one tried to get a banana they would get cold water untill they simply stoped t…

IMO the margins for selection can be pretty big w.r.t culture.

Also that last point probably only work if the punishment is incredibly big, and I doubt something like that exists for the scale MS operates at.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#198

Post by throwaway2048 »

pjmlp wrote: post #18
chenzhekl wrote: post #15

This is exactly the same as what MS did for the Python extension when the open-source LSP was replaced by the proprietary Pylance. I get the feeling that MS becomes more and more likes Google. For example, on Android, the core experience is provided by GMS while the AOSP is provided as an open-source core. In terms of VSCode, the core editor is free and open-source, but some key experience is baked by proprietary com…

It appears offering free beer forever isn't sustainable, even when one has deep pockets, go figure.

I somehow doubt that Microsoft has any pressing need to return profits from the python LSP

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#199

Post by zozbot234 »

oblio wrote: post #103
bayindirh wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a lot of younger developers and "tech citizens" think MS is a saint now. They need to love Open Source / Linux because their platform has lost to the openness, composability and lightness of Linux. They lost the server space, but they're retrying to seize desktop from Linux with WSL and invading the developer tools space and trying to isolate Desktop Linux as an "irrelevant layer which runs MS software and techn…

> trying to isolate Desktop Linux as an irrelevant layer They're obviously doing that, but they don't really need to. Desktop Linux is its own enemy. 2 major GUI toolkits, frequent upgrades to them, generally with breaking changes, multiple DEs, frequent upgrades to them, also with breaking changes, a full decades of bickering over a solution that solves actual end user and operator problems in a standardizing way (s…

> Android doesn't count. Android used a cheap and standard kernel with many drivers and plopped a million proprietary things on top that look nothing like Desktop Linux.

Android is doing what every Linux embedded platform had been doing anyway. If anything, they're more open than the rest of the mobile/embedded space. It's not like e.g. OpenMoko looks more like Desktop Linux than Android does.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#200

Post by rmeby »

Beltiras wrote: post #180
kelnos wrote: post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

I've worked with MS solutions and I've worked with *nix solutions for 2 decades. I can't for the life of me understand how people choose to inflict the pain of MS on themselves in anything except "office productivity". I must admit, that's an area they have got pretty good at. .NET is horrible to work with. C# is a decent language mind you, I like the language features. It just needs a better "standard library".

What sorts of things are wrong with .NET in your view? As someone who recently started working with it after using Java for years, it has been refreshing and largely enjoyable for me.
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