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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#71
post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

Opinions like this have always been weird to me. Not wrong, but weird.

Any contribution that M$ (remember when people would sub the S for a dollar sign?) makes to open source or open standards is to support their own bottom line and we shouldn't expect anything else. The directors have a legal responsibility to the company and to boost the share price, not for the betterment of humanity. To this effect, companies will contribute to open standards when it's better for the share price, and will seek to screw open standards when it's better for the share price.

Public companies are inherently evil by default -- this is because the only goal of a public company is to strengthen the share price. I've said it before and I'll say it again: always assume bad faith when you're dealing with a company.

From this, it doesn't matter what people thought of Microsoft before, or what they think of them now. Microsoft like all companies has a single goal. If we can pressure these companies to coast in a certain direction then great. But we shouldn't ever believe that companies can 'turn over a new leaf' when they legally cannot. FAANG is the same. Ford is the same. Starbucks is the same.

Every company is exactly the same, but the larger they grow, the more visible and impactful these actions become. Microsoft has been in the spotlight for decades because it has been a juggernaut for decades. But it's hardly unique in what it does. Our real concerns should be why regulators were quick to put the smack down on Microsoft but have since turned into paper tigers and are allowing unhinged monopolization from FAANG in 2022.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#72
post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

I think what's more likely in this case is that MS under Satya really does want to be a good corporate citizen, but are finding themselves in a bind that threatens the whole organisation. They're spending up the wazoo on Xbox, still, to battle PlayStation. They were supposed to have conquered that market over 15 years ago and are still throwing money at it. Windows is hurting as a retail business. License costs have…

This reads to me as:

> MS under Satya really does want to be a good corporate citizen

... followed by...

> [a bunch of reasons why MS won't be a good corporate citizen]

Wanting is great, but actions speak louder. Maybe instead of doing sketchy things to try to lock people into your cloud platform (and make using your framework on other platforms more difficult), they could, I dunno, maybe focus on Azure itself, and making it better than AWS? The world would be a better place if companies were incentivized to compete on product features, and not through shady practices and backroom dealing.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#73
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a lot of younger developers and "tech citizens" think MS is a saint now. They need to love Open Source / Linux because their platform has lost to the openness, composability and lightness of Linux. They lost the server space, but they're retrying to seize desktop from Linux with WSL and invading the developer tools space and trying to isolate Desktop Linux as an "irrelevant layer which runs MS software and techn…

Yup, agreed. Didn't realize how much Canonical was helping with WSL, though it of course makes sense that they're doing so, unfortunately. > De Icasa is not a saint either by pushing Mono on GNOME and Linux Eh, I think interoperability is good, and reverse-engineering Windows frameworks/technology has a long history in the open-source world (WINE & Samba being two prominent examples). I was disappointed when they sol…

> Didn't realize how much Canonical was helping with WSL, though it of course makes sense that they're doing so, unfortunately.

Eh, they have a dedicated team for enabling WSL/Ubuntu desktop in Canonical. They're fueling the effort.

> Eh, I think interoperability is good, and reverse-engineering Windows frameworks/technology has a long history in the open-source world (WINE & Samba being two prominent examples).

IIRC, De Icaza left GNOME, joined Microsoft, developed Mono on open specs, founded Xamarin and sold it back to Microsoft.

His joint venture with MS what turned everything sour for many people, incl. me. However, we all love Wine, esp. when they implement things bug-by-bug without knowing it (and without help from Microsoft). The cursor (or Icon or WMF) exploit was a great laugh. We all love SMB too, because it's done despite Microsoft.

The language on this page is loaded (in a way I don't like), but it keeps a good roster of the events: http://techrights.org/wiki/Miguel_de_Icaza

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#74
post #35

.NET is open. You can find its source on Github. The .NET platform being open doesn't mean everything targeting the .NET platform is open, too.

A problem of the .NET ecosystem is that there is no open source debugger for C#. The Microsoft-provided debugger has strict license terms that only allow it to be used in Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code. JetBrains needed to write their own debugger for their cross-platform IDE Rider. Luckily they already knew a lot about .NET to do this and it turned out very well but it's still not the official debugger and als…

Did JetBrains open source their debugger?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#75

The actual announcement is here: https://github.com/omnisharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276 It's not quite as dramatic as the OP is making it out to be.

These things almost never are, and the purists risk a purist death spiral. It reminds me of the closed source drivers debate. Someone has a proprietary component they want to incorporate into an open source system. The purists demand they open source that proprietary software if they want it integrated into the open source. The developer wants a compromise, but the purists won't allow it, so the developer is left to…

What do you wish was done differently in the open source drivers debate exactly? We have closed nvidia drivers, they're shitty but they work, people who don't want closed drivers can avoid them, people who don't mind them can use them. It seems to have successfully pushed AMD to open-source their drivers, and now even pushed nvidia to make the in-kernel component of their drivers open-source.

Would you have wished that the Linux project should just have incorporated closed-source kernel modules into mainline? Who would that have helped?

Outside the GPU space, tonnes of companies are publishing their drivers' source code under the GPL. I don't think they would have if they didn't have to. Isn't this a good thing? As someone who works on embedded Linux systems for a living, I'm certainly very thankful that I don't have to deal with closed out-of-tree kernel modules.

Seems like the strategy has been extremely successful at achieving what it was meant to achieve. Whether those goals overlap with your personal ideals or not is a different story.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#76
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claiming that part of Darwin is opensource, which it was, is not quite the same thing as claiming to love opensource, and yet slowly close it up once you have mindshare like with VSCode. Apple didn't take ownership and then start closing CUPS, but they have also never pretended to be a friend of OpenSouce. They haven't produced anything opensource since then. There have been a couple of projects, like their rebrandin…

> Apple didn't take ownership and then start closing CUPS, but they have also never pretended to be a friend of OpenSouce. They haven't produced anything opensource since then. Two counter-examples: They open sourced Swift in 2015 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_(programming_language)#H... ), and Swift-DocC in 2021 ( https://www.swift.org/blog/swift-docc/ ) Apple bought CUPS in 2007 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

I'm not sure how they are counterpoints. Who would use a programming language that wasn't open?

Except dot net devs. Which is the point.

CUPS was critical infrastructure for Apple, so they bought it. Since it is GPL they couldn't close it, hence they abandoned it.

Apple are not your friend, but they never claimed to be, you just might have an overlapping interest, Microsoft hold big "We Heart Linux" events.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#77
post #35

.NET is open. You can find its source on Github. The .NET platform being open doesn't mean everything targeting the .NET platform is open, too.

A problem of the .NET ecosystem is that there is no open source debugger for C#. The Microsoft-provided debugger has strict license terms that only allow it to be used in Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code. JetBrains needed to write their own debugger for their cross-platform IDE Rider. Luckily they already knew a lot about .NET to do this and it turned out very well but it's still not the official debugger and als…

So write your own? That’s kind of the whole point of an open system.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#78
post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

I think what's more likely in this case is that MS under Satya really does want to be a good corporate citizen, but are finding themselves in a bind that threatens the whole organisation. They're spending up the wazoo on Xbox, still, to battle PlayStation. They were supposed to have conquered that market over 15 years ago and are still throwing money at it. Windows is hurting as a retail business. License costs have…

Home licensing has not been a big deal for a very long time. Their actual cash cows are things like Enterprise Licensing which aren’t going anywhere soon. You’ve also entirely excluded server licensing as well.

Have a read of their actual results and maybe re-think your hypothesis a bit. Microsoft’s revenue went up by 18%. I think they’ll be fine without some .NET extension,

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#79

I've been using Omnisharp-VsCode extension for years on my daily job. It's far from ideal, especially the initial setup experience. I think here's what's going on: It appears VS Code is Microsoft's main IDE and C# is the main language. Not surprised they decided to obtain more control over the integration to improve the experience. In terms of management, it's always easier to cut all the external dependencies (commu…

I can echo this, while doing its job most of the time, Omnisharp has been one of the least stable parts of my VS Code C# experience (the least stable as usual being anything relating to Unity ;) ). Issues like runaway compiler threads, slow response times, OmniSharp frequently losing the mono-path and requires restart (this is some config issue and interaction with Unity, but could have been handled automatically). I…

Ah, no wonder I felt unproductive with C# on VSCode. I couldn't wrap my head around that it is now how you should write C# code with such bad intellisense n stuff.
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