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Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

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Re: Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

#21

Post by darthrupert »

Cu3PO42 wrote: post #6
emptysongglass wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did the same thing with closed source Pylance, which is built on top of the open source Pyright. Pretty despicable behavior no matter how you cut it.

I'm by no means in favor of closed source extensions, but I feel it's worth mentioning that yes, Pyright is open source and Pylance isn't, but Pyright is also a Microsoft project. You can hardly make the argument that keeping all parts closed source would have been better.

They have full right to do this. They are still scumbags for doing it.

Nobody should be terribly surprised when a giant corporation behaves like a scumbag; it's a fundamental feature of such organizations. We as individuals have the responsibility of shunning them when they do this.

Re: Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

#22

Post by davidatbu »

darthrupert wrote: post #21
Cu3PO42 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm by no means in favor of closed source extensions, but I feel it's worth mentioning that yes, Pyright is open source and Pylance isn't, but Pyright is also a Microsoft project. You can hardly make the argument that keeping all parts closed source would have been better.

They have full right to do this. They are still scumbags for doing it. Nobody should be terribly surprised when a giant corporation behaves like a scumbag; it's a fundamental feature of such organizations. We as individuals have the responsibility of shunning them when they do this.

I'm curious, why are they scumbags?

Aren't they free to decide how their time and effort is used? Do they have some inherent obligation to work for you for free(which is what open source is)?

If you develop some piece of software, and use the open core model, I wouldn't consider you a scumbag.

Re: Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

#23

Post by webmaven »

mistrial9 wrote: post #5
erklik wrote: post #2

So, is this the Extend part now? Embrace is over? (I don't understand each of the terms of the slogan enough) Side note, I am guessing this means that Vim, Emacs etc using LSP don't get C# intellisense anymore?

the 90s saying was Embrace,Extend,Extinguish. pick an internet or engineering standard: implement the standard in a correct, technical way (Embrace); add MSFT proprietary extensions using an IDE, a method of notification, graphical desktop software with convenience functions, etc (Extend); now, require MSFT software to use that result, use finance to market it, use contracts to require company-wide use of standard MS…

> pick an internet or engineering standard: implement the standard in a correct, technical way (Embrace); add MSFT proprietary extensions using an IDE, a method of notification, graphical desktop software with convenience functions, etc (Extend);

You're sort of glossing over how this works in practice.

The extensions to the open standard generally cause interoperability to be one way: the Microsoft implementation can interoperate freely with the open implementation(s), but the reverse isn't necessarily true (or if true at the outset, isn't guaranteed to remain so). There is often also a way to use or operate the MS implementation in a fully compatible mode, but it isn't the default configuration (and an update will often revert to the default), and requires forgoing the functionality that the extensions provide.

There is a bit of "boiling the frog" aspect to this, with incompatibilities (usually experienced by those using a non-MS implementation without the extensions) that start as annoyances gradually escalating, and at all times switching to the MS implementation is an easy (and, as long as their market share isn't dominant, affordable) option to make the headache go away.

Re: Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

#24

Post by Barrin92 »

darthrupert wrote: post #21
Cu3PO42 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm by no means in favor of closed source extensions, but I feel it's worth mentioning that yes, Pyright is open source and Pylance isn't, but Pyright is also a Microsoft project. You can hardly make the argument that keeping all parts closed source would have been better.

They have full right to do this. They are still scumbags for doing it. Nobody should be terribly surprised when a giant corporation behaves like a scumbag; it's a fundamental feature of such organizations. We as individuals have the responsibility of shunning them when they do this.

don't really understand this mentality. I think people or organizations who create software, or anything really, ought to have the right (not just legally, but ethically) to determine how much of it they want to open up, given that they've built it.

I don't see the relationship to giant corporations either. Sublime is proprietary, Datomic is, a lot of bespoke tools are because the creators depend on capturing their full value.

Re: Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

#25

Post by exyi »

josephcsible wrote: post #17
nojito wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are the primary contributor to both things. It’s quite amazing that most people just associate open source with “free” not realizing that time is literally money.

But they're not the only contributor, so they'd have to either get permission from everyone else or revert all their changes, which would have been a nontrivial effort.

In theory... In practice they'd not start / contribute to GPL project in the first place.

Re: Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

#26

Post by josephcsible »

exyi wrote: post #25
josephcsible wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they're not the only contributor, so they'd have to either get permission from everyone else or revert all their changes, which would have been a nontrivial effort.

In theory... In practice they'd not start / contribute to GPL project in the first place.

Yeah, you're probably right. I guess my point is directed more at community developers: Don't work for free for the benefit of closed-source products. If you want to make a substantial contribution to something that's open-source under a pushover license, either make or find a copyleft fork and contribute your changes there instead.

Re: Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

#27

Post by lovetox »

darthrupert wrote: post #21
Cu3PO42 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm by no means in favor of closed source extensions, but I feel it's worth mentioning that yes, Pyright is open source and Pylance isn't, but Pyright is also a Microsoft project. You can hardly make the argument that keeping all parts closed source would have been better.

They have full right to do this. They are still scumbags for doing it. Nobody should be terribly surprised when a giant corporation behaves like a scumbag; it's a fundamental feature of such organizations. We as individuals have the responsibility of shunning them when they do this.

We use pyright, great software with extremely quick support and fixes. I think they have a full time developer on this project. You seem pretty entitled.

Re: Microsoft discloses plans to turn parts of VS Code C# extension to closed source

#28

Post by josephcsible »

emptysongglass wrote: post #4
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #3

>> "We plan to create a new “LSP Tools Host” component (not an official name ), which integrates both open-source components, like Roslyn and Razor, with closed-source components, offering a wider array of tooling capabilities." >> "Once the “LSP Tools Host” is complete, this will become the default experience for the C# for VS Code extension. Existing users will be able to choose between the open-source OmniSharp po…

They did the same thing with closed source Pylance, which is built on top of the open source Pyright. Pretty despicable behavior no matter how you cut it.

Also, remember that Microsoft added code to Pylance to see if you were running an open-source build of VS Code and to refuse to work if you were.
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