Live data from Hacker News

Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

usatoday.com

511–520 of 593 posts

Re: Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow your parallelism. But yeah, you'd probably have to raise taxes to climb out of the hole we've dug. Or you could go for MMT (sticking your head in the hole.)

The problem with your comment is that raising taxes is MMT. Sticking your head in the hole is what neo classical economics does.

Raising taxes long predates MMT, and it will keep happening long after people have stopped trying to sell MMT.

MMT takes the interesting twist of claiming that the means, taxation, is actually an end in itself.

I don't disagree that it looks like a decent description of how many countries run, but the assumptions propping up the theory would rapidly fall apart if governments acted on the beliefs that MMT espouses.

The theory rests on the probably correct assertion that you can only voluntarily default in a currency that you print with impunity. But that statement sits atop a tacit assumption that the money is worth the paper it's printed on. In reality, any country pursuing this theory will inflate its currency to the point where the currency can't be used internationally, and the citizens will abandon the currency to the extent that it hasn't been made illegal to do so.

If they can't skip out on the inflationary currency, the people who failed to flee in time will stop working and innovating consistent with the degree to which the hyperinflation means that there is no means of saving for the future.

The hyperinflating government will try a combination of preventing emigration and ownership of stable stores of value (gold, foreign currencies.) The leakiness of the system keeps everything from fully and officially failing, but MMT's guarantee of no default will ring hollow when the government can't afford to feed its political prisoners or even the guards watching them.

Of course, I've used the wrong verb tense, because I'm describing Venezuela.

Re: Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last budget and tax cut was 2017.the real solution is to tax wxcess wealth and force wealth creators to pay for society

Wealth creators already do pay for society. Where do you think most of the tax money comes from? The top 1% of taxpayers pay almost half the taxes.

Yeah, no.

Re: Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of taxes just gets passed on to the consumer. Or as Traders say... >It's priced in. Tax does not do anything to extract money in the end from anyone but the consumer; or at least not any tax that I've bothered to actually sit down and trace in the rare accounting mood.

> Cost of taxes just gets passed on to the consumer > It's priced in. That's just not true. It can only be true if you assume all sellers collude not to lower prices. In a free market, one seller might eat the tax, undercut the rest, and net more money at a lower profit margin by attracting business from competitors. That risk generally prevents taxes from being fully priced in.

Today I charge $5 to sell a widget.

$4 to make the thing, get it to you, and pay all taxes inherent to all the jurisdictions involved in producing and selling the thing to you. Let's even assume I'm the most amazing business man, and I've trimmed the process down to the absolute minimum possible cost per unit by nailing every optimization under the sun.

and $1 profit to come out ahead.

Now. That $1 profit is totally open to get undercut by a competitor.

We've pinned that $4 as the minimum possible cost to make that widget based on the laws of physics and business. Even if my competitors are all as amazing as me, they too hit $4 spend to produce 1 widget.

The next day, a tax is imposed. Not on the consumer, but on the businesses; this increases the floor cost per widget produced from $4 to $4.50 cents.

I priced things at $5 a widget. I'm still in the black with no adjustment. I have two choices: increase cost to keep making the same relative profit (if the market will bear it) in terms of cash, or convert some of that cash profit to "Goodwill" by basically taking a haircut and eating the tax. This could get me brand recognition or attract a certain type of investor.

My competitor, Sudden But Inevitable Undercut Inc. Priced their widget at $4.50 previously only pocketing 50 cents.

Unfortunately, they have no wiggle room any further. They drop out of the market, as to them the thought of increasing the price is unthinkable.

Any other competitors are left with the same choice as I had:

A) increase price to get same relative profit B) cash in on Goodwill

But as more companies choose B, the value of B plummets. No one cares if you ate the tax if everyone does it, and in fact not doing it when everyone else does attracts an equally large set of particularly minded investors

The consumer still ends up ultimately eating it because supply just shrunk, demand stayed the same, (price goes up) because a supplier was just priced out of the market in a poof of non-profitability.

BUT! The ones who dropped out liquidated their stuff! Who'll buy it? Probably suppliers still making widgets. Who has the most to throw around? Me, of course. I could grab all those assets to prevent my competitors from being able to utilize them to scale, or to bolster my own production to be able to service more demand! I can do this, because growth can only be bought with money now. I have money now! Yay, greed!

So now, you're left resolving that Goodwill spread across your supplier population. In my experience, there is a far smaller set of Stakeholder value centric companies than Shareholder centric value companies.

Let's say it's 50/50 though, lets assume the market bears my elevated cost for buying the widget without much complaint. What does next quarter look like?

The ones who readjust up for the same relative profit may be able to capture fulfillment for a higher fraction of the finite demand. At first, this may seem advantageous to those who took a haircut, because that essentially turns into a bump in supply, pushing prices down; but as long as the higher priced widget sellers keep improving faster than the competitors that took the haircut, over time they (the less altruistic bunch) may be able to drive more benevolent competitors out of profitability, recapturing their (the more altruistic, but slower growing suppliers) now unprofitably serviced chunk of demand.

Boo! I say as the highest price supplier, I didn't make as much as I wanted in end consumer sales, but hey, wholesale is better than no sale, right? And I can still play the ole M&A card to acquire other suppliers to increase the shadow I cast in terms of effect on price.

If the market doesn't bear the higher cost, it can go the other way of course, and if one makes the dangerous assumption of rational homo economicus, the more benevolent actors may hold out, but they still won't won't grow as fast as their less altruistic competitor, (growth requires cash now, not goodwill).

So say our more altruistic company charges less most of the time, they're still going to have to price in the difference in response to the proportion of increased demand by consumers drawn by their normally lower prices, the max demand they can in house satisfy with their own production, and the elevated cost of sourcing more expensive supply from a less popular supplier due to their higher price to keep customers happy. Their prices are still pegged high, and they are vulnerable vulnerable to shakedowns by their upstream supplier if they want to keep that goodwill flowing.

A final equilibrium is reached only when there is no more room allowed by regulators for M&A until there is a breakthrough or change in the laws and physics of business, to bump that floor price down.

In reality, all businesses make these types of decisions all the time. The hard truth remains though: if you tack on higher costs to produce, there is nothing to stop businesses from passing that cost along. Not passing it along can net some goodwill, but rapidly hits diminishing returns as more companies do it, and hamstrings your growth potential if the population of the type of investor your goodwill piques the interest of ever shifts substantially, and in particular, shrinks. I've met far more pragmatic, profitability driven investors than ideal driven, so I'd wager your idealists are way less common than your "lets make lotsa money" investors.

Cash buys you more throughput. Goodwill may get you more demand, but inability to keep up and fulfill that demand means you're delegating business, and customers to a more costly supplier eventually anyway. Which raises the question, if you can't give everyone the lower price now, why not pass on the cost of that tax, reclaim your profit, possibly innovate, and give it to them later? Or why not have it be your hand on the till? I mean you had good intentions. You're just reacting to the market! You'll make it up to the consumer! Just... Later.

Several years later, you get faced with the same decision again and wonder if now is the time... Rinse, repeat.

Greed, in this sense, subverts the "virtuous" cycle.

But lets get back to iteration 1.

The end consumer though... after the tax is imposed is still paying at least $4.51-$5.50 where yesterday, they were paying $4-$5.

So, no... While I think you can cross your fingers and hope a bunch of people famous for being cutthroatly pragmatic will out of the goodness of their heart eat a tax for you...

I've gotten to the point I've thrown in the towel on that, and assume the traders are right

It's priced in.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

Re: Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

#516
post #445

If you've come here for informed commentary on economics, so far it seems the comments section is about par for the course by internet standards. If you're looking for informed professional analysis, I highly recommend the Inside Economics podcast by Moody's Analytics[0]. They post at least once per week and they often discuss recession odds, they break down the causes of inflation, and regularly host industry expert…

Hmmm, Moody's where do I remember that name from? Oh ya here it is - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/14/moodys-864m... Economics is the lies told by some middle class assholes with a degree and/or credential that get paid just enough by upper class assholes to trick low class rubes.

Thanks for posting the link so I didn't have to.

Re: Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

#517
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll never finish paying rent, but you will finish paying your mortgage eventually. Also, your mortgage payment won't increase much while you own your house (just the part for property taxes), while rents will often go up (and sometimes down) with the market. So if you are in it for the long term, a house will provide stability after 10 or so years. And that isn't even considering the fact that it is your place to…

You’ll never stop paying. Pick rent or property taxes. Obviously property taxes are less than rent in your typical case. But it’s not even an order of magnitude difference

No, it is around...a third where I live maybe? Or maybe a 4th of what rent would be like. But I can always sell/downsize and retire to somewhere with cheaper property taxes, which is something I couldn't do renting. Rents don't do that.

But watch the rent to home price ratio. There is definitely a point where renting just makes more sense, like when I was paying $1000/month on something that the landlord was trying to sell for a $1 million. Ya, buying in that case would be purely for speculation.

Re: Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

#518
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"This is turning into the West's version of Pakistan's brick kilns." Could you elaborate on this reference? I am not familiar with this.

Brick kilns in Pakistan (and also Bangladesh and possibly other places) are a form of neoslavery [1]. What happens is that depserate people are forced to take a job but as part of that job they go into debt. The company provides housing? You'll have to pay that back. They provide food too. You'll have to pay that back. That's the point. For most there is absolutely no escaping that debt so they can't possibly get out…

I see. Yeah this is known as "debt peonage." It also exists in the Gulf States of the Middle East in the form of the Kafala System where they use imported servitude from the Subcontinent/South Asia. It's how the World Cup will be able to played in Quatar this year. See:

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-kafala-system

and

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/02/reality-...

and

https://humantraffickingsearch.org/kafala-system/

Re: Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

#519
post #251

The returns that capital demands (and the government obliges to) are ultimately unsustainable. That's the core problem here. Rising wages? There has been no meaningful real increase in wages in 40 years despite a massive increase in productivity. Profits keep going up and up. The expectations for profits keep going up. The problem here is that the people who make companies possible don't get to share in the proceeds…

Question for anyone that knows - have healthcare costs eaten away at what possible wage increases could have happened? It seems to me that for the average almost-minimum wage full time worker the insurance cost to their employer is probably a very large portion of their wages.

Re: Federal Reserve raises rates by 0.75%

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of homes available for https://www.zillow.com/detroit-mi/

I clicked a handful of those and every single one of them looked like they needed roughly 75-100k worth of repairs to make them livable. Then on top of that I would be worried about my safety if I lived there. Not the best example.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN