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Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

theguardian.com

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Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#131

Post by wolverine876 »

theplumber wrote: post #71
wolverine876 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to mention that too much empaty would be highly detrimental to any innovation and even survival. You would never fire someone and would use all the reasources to "help the poor" instead to invest into high risk high reward projects(i.e computers, space exploration). You would die of starvation instead to slaughter the cow because you are too empathic. This is a fantasy of objectivism, reactionaryism, and the li…

>> Empathy makes you care about the people you will feed with the beef, including yourself (empathy starts with yourself) - it doesn't turn you into an idiot, except in the imaginary strawperson fantasies of the aformentioned groups. >> empathy starts with yourself That's not empathy. Empathy starts with the animal/person by your side otherwise you are just a selfish person. If you can eat grass/vegetables and surviv…

>> empathy starts with yourself

> That's not empathy.

It is, and people who don't have it are unable to have empathy for others. In theory, perhaps someone could have empathy only or others. In reality, empathy and similar emotions come from the inside out. Metaphorically, it fills you up then overflows.

People who do not love themselves, who cannot have empathy for themselves despite their flaws and mistakes, cannot love others. And I am not criticizing those people; they deserve love and empathy.

> if investment in poor people provides good returns why there is not enough investment? (i.e unsecured loans provided by the private sector)

It's a good investment for the community, for society - education is one well-accepted example. There are charitities that provide unsecured loans (and grants), with high rates of paymet. Look up JustGive and microlending, for example. However, it's (presumably) not a high rate of ROI for the private sector - they don't profit from changing people's lives and making them more productive. There are many things in the world that the free market doesn't serve well.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#132

Post by bee_rider »

samatman wrote: post #90
bee_rider wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raccoons and bears have pretty impressive puzzle solving skills, as anyone who has tried to keep them out of a garbage can will note. Although bear strength is a bit of a crutch, there's also the whole escalating food puzzle game between them and hikers. Cats, I think people just mistake their uncooperative nature for some sort of mysterious wise aloofness.

It's not surprising that a crepuscular ambush predator is less intelligent than pack predators, it would be surprising if it were the other way around. It's fascinating the replies I get claiming I must be a dog person. It's really... telling... when someone conflates intelligence and moral worth like that. I like cats. I'm not going to pretend they're as smart as dogs just because I like them.

Hah, I had a whole long comment about how I was most impressed by pack hunters, but I somehow backed myself into a bunch of comments around how they must be smart enough to model each other's behavior, which in some ways seems similar to metacognition... until I realized I was in totally over my head and about to make a bunch of arguments about intelligence and animal behavior that I had no chance of backing up.

So, raccoons in the garbage.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#133

Post by harpersealtako »

kinghtown wrote: post #123
guerrilla wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? The only people who don't think animals feel pain are people who don't spend time with animals. Every farmer since the neolithic has known that animals feel pain and are…

Quoted post unavailable.

Admittedly I only skimmed through through it, but it looks like yet another vegan documentary (e.g. Dominion, which I watched all the way through and wasn't convinced at all by) where the worst examples of the worst excesses of industrialized slaughter are taken in the worst possible light and suggested to be broadly representative of the whole. Honestly, anybody with basically any exposure to real-life animal husbandry can find issues in these sorts of documentaries with minimal effort. For myself, I'm a hunter and so I regularly kill and butcher wild animals literally as a hobby -- despite this (or maybe because of it), I'm actually quite open to criticizing the ethics of intensive livestock farms as long as it's not through the lens of "meat is murder".

I wish there was a halfway decent documentary that took a more balanced approach, because if your goal is "better animal welfare" rather than "the abolition of meat eating on moral grounds" then there's actually a lot to criticize and improve on. e.g. I thought "Food Inc" was a lot more even-handed, even though it still fell into some of the usual traps.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#134

Post by prometheus76 »

sky-kedge0749 wrote: post #130
prometheus76 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I trust 2,000 years of accumulated wisdom in my spiritual tradition more than I trust my own judgement. I don't completely disregard my own judgement, but I also recognize that I am easily deceived, I lack discernment, and that I cannot always trust my own motives, nor am I always aware of the consequences of my actions. That's why I have a priest, and why I rely on the traditions of my faith.

There is plenty of meat available that is almost cruelty-free. A factory farmed broiler chicken lives its entire 60,480 minutes (six weeks) in agony, while a hunted deer or pastured cow might only suffer a few minutes, and for the deer you might be saving it from an even worse fate. Maybe you are already buying meat that way. I'm sorry that I compared what you feel to be a religious necessity to eat meat to torturing…

My meat intake all comes from locally raised meat where I physically go to the farm and can see how the animals are being treated.

I also agree that the "all or nothing" kind of tone that many people who advocate against eating meat takes is a hard line to sell. A "try a plant-based meal once a week" would be a much easier sell.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#135

Post by epgui »

theplumber wrote: post #71
wolverine876 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to mention that too much empaty would be highly detrimental to any innovation and even survival. You would never fire someone and would use all the reasources to "help the poor" instead to invest into high risk high reward projects(i.e computers, space exploration). You would die of starvation instead to slaughter the cow because you are too empathic. This is a fantasy of objectivism, reactionaryism, and the li…

>> Empathy makes you care about the people you will feed with the beef, including yourself (empathy starts with yourself) - it doesn't turn you into an idiot, except in the imaginary strawperson fantasies of the aformentioned groups. >> empathy starts with yourself That's not empathy. Empathy starts with the animal/person by your side otherwise you are just a selfish person. If you can eat grass/vegetables and surviv…

> if investment in poor people provides good returns why there is not enough investment? (i.e unsecured loans provided by the private sector)

If I read this as a rhetorical question, then we are supposing that people always do the most profitable thing. We know this is not the case, because people are very shortsighted: there is no particular reason to think we would not be shortsighted in this matter either.

Moreover, there are a lot of examples of things that have great ROI, but that the private sector is ill-equipped or unable to do, for whatever reason. The provision of public education, basic healthcare, infrastructure, are all great examples. These have great ROI in the long term at the population scale, but apart from some niches, are ill-suited to private enterprise.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#136

Post by ttrmw »

sky-kedge0749 wrote: post #117
ttrmw wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption. Any suggested reading for someone like me?

Do you really need 200g protein at 2500 calories? Those numbers seem off to me, 200g protein is what a big guy trying to gain a lot of muscle might eat to make absolutely sure he's getting enough, but 2500 calories is what a big guy would eat to maintain or even lose weight. Everyone is different, but you might need either less protein or more calories than you think you do. If 200/2500 really is the goal then I'm no…

well assessed, 200/2500 are my cutting targets

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#137

Post by ttrmw »

kinghtown wrote: post #94
ttrmw wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption. Any suggested reading for someone like me?

I’d suggest looking at some plant based diet athletes like Kylie Irving and see what he’s doing. I’m not going to lie or pretend that egg whites have a 1:1 equivalent in vegan nutrition but I would suggest taking a cold hard look at your performance requirements if you are competing on a professional level and if it really is all that necessary to squeeze that extra 3% performance edge or whatever it may be by eating…

Thank you

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#138

Post by [deleted] »

ttrmw wrote: post #136
sky-kedge0749 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really need 200g protein at 2500 calories? Those numbers seem off to me, 200g protein is what a big guy trying to gain a lot of muscle might eat to make absolutely sure he's getting enough, but 2500 calories is what a big guy would eat to maintain or even lose weight. Everyone is different, but you might need either less protein or more calories than you think you do. If 200/2500 really is the goal then I'm no…

well assessed, 200/2500 are my cutting targets

[deleted]

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#139

Post by eointierney »

shsysuzhzbb wrote: post #36
eointierney wrote: post #17

Anthropomorphism is the curse of our intelligence

Everyone always says this, but why? I hear how it is 'dangerous' to anthropomorphize animals by people like Joe Rogan constantly. Can you explain what is 'dangerous' about it? Or why we have to be 'careful' doing so? Genuinely interested. To me, the only downside is we might have to face the atrocities we commit in our daily life.

It's not so much about animals as about everything else. It's dangerous because we over-simplify in terms of ourselves, and we often therefore lead each other astray from demonstable accuracy.

We might commit atrocities as we are very wasteful, but with a little more "seeing the universe in ourselves" and a little less "seeing ourselves in the universe", we might refrain from anthropomorphisation and just enjoy our extraordinary amazingness, without destroying the planet as an afterthought to our vanity.

Anthropomorphism is boring and lazy

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#140

Post by kinghtown »

harpersealtako wrote: post #133
kinghtown wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Admittedly I only skimmed through through it, but it looks like yet another vegan documentary (e.g. Dominion, which I watched all the way through and wasn't convinced at all by) where the worst examples of the worst excesses of industrialized slaughter are taken in the worst possible light and suggested to be broadly representative of the whole. Honestly, anybody with basically any exposure to real-life animal husban…

oh for sure these vegan documentaries are going to cherry pick footage (because the goal is to shock and expose) but it’s not as though they were invited to film in multiple locations around the world and chose the most messed up place of the bunch. The problem is that most people have this like cartoon visual in their head of farming and that these animals are killed gently and instantly when an extreme opposite is closer to the truth.

I’d argue that industrialized slaughter is just never going to look good regardless of what facility it is. Lab grown meat is something I would support but as it stands today the meat industry is an abject horror and deserves to be exposed.

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