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Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

science.org

201–210 of 316 posts

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#201

I think "nightmare" is a bit sensational. The LHC's purpose is not to "find X" it is to take measurements over a novel range of conditions. The new data is what we're after.

"Nightmare" was how physicists themselves characterize the situation we are in, and have done for at least 15 years. Look at the 2007 article linked in the article above: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.315.5819.1657 Jonathan Ellis is on the record there describing the scenario we find ourselves in now as "the real five-star disaster". (you can get the full article by putting the link into scholar.google.…

I think people here should imagine it like an infrastructure investment with an extremely bad ROI. People are using it and it's well-made, but the return on our investment would never have justified the cost in time or effort.

The whole history of high energy physics is a back-and-forth between models and experiment. We get to a new energy level, try some things that the models are ambiguous about, and previously we've gotten new and interesting results that lead people to reshape models and make new predictions. That has not, generally, happened with the LHC. The frustrating limitations and inconsistencies of the standard model are the same as when we built it.

The problem is we spent a lot of money and time and focus on building a tool that has not actually moved us forward much. This happens from time to time - but it's bad! We have not made our series of scientific advances by getting lucky on a bunch of coin flips - we've been able to use previous experiments to design the next set of tools in ways that productively open up parts of the science we could not observe before. The fact that we seem to have failed to accomplish this with one of the largest, most expensive tools ever built calls into question the methods that led us to choose to build this tool instead of other possible ones.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#202
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

gus_massa: Since you are likely an expert, could you recommend a resource that explains how you use the Lagrangian equation for the standard model [1] to actually compute a predicted value for the electron's g ? An elementary resource that goes through basic steps for a computer scientist (non expert in QFT) would be a great. A simpler particle than electron is also ok, but I'd love to understand how you mess with th…

Sadly not an expert in that area. I only took a course of Nuclear Physics for a Major in Physics [1]. So I can read and understand that stuff, but the fine details pass over my head. Looking at a recent page of that course, the recomended books are * F. Halzen, A. Martin, “Quarks and Leptons: An introductory course in modern particle physics” (Wiley 1984) * D. Griffiths, “Introduction to elementary particles” (Wiley…

> Looking at a recent page of that course, the recomended books are * F. Halzen, A. Martin, “Quarks and Leptons: An introductory course in modern particle physics” (Wiley 1984) * D. Griffiths, “Introduction to elementary particles” (Wiley 1987)

It is telling that for a recent course the recommended books are over 35 years old. Consistent with the OP proposition.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#203
post #133

the whole of western civilization built on materialism is in trouble.

On what are built others civilizations? I've yet to see a civilization that is not built on money and power.

I think OP meant the philosophical standpoint of materialism:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#204
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, are you seriously proposing that either we fund new particle accelerators or we're just going to build weapons/ads/gambling systems, and there are no other choices? I want to be clear that this is your claim before I spend any more time on it.

No. I'm pointing out that our current system is already spending money on far more wasteful things, thus it should be possible to fund accelerators by taking away from the things that are an outright detriment to humanity than the things that are, at worst, only useless. I even point out that the reality is likely if we fund particle accelerators, it will likely be diverted from places we don't want it to be diverted…

Unfortunately the "weapons are a waste" opinion has taken a severe hit since February.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#205
post #152

A few years ago, I went to a public interview/chat with Rainer Weiss in NYC. He described years of work in which the LIGO team found inventive ways to make their systems more precise. They just kept knocking down orders-of-magnitude. Still, after taking new measurements, they found nothing. No gravitational waves. Then the interviewer asked him if he was discouraged at this point in his career. I loved his response.…

It is interesting that you bring up LIGO. I actually had a formative experience in my career around a decade ago related to this. I worked on the project for a summer. During that period, I realized that the process of discovery in the dark is one where the seekers have no control over the treasures. I decided not to pursue a career in the field. My lotus of control could not handle dedicating my life's work to chance.

Rainer demonstrated a dedication and passion in that interview that not everyone can meet. I learned that I'm more passionate about effective/real world problem solving than I am about physics.

Those who have a true passion for physics have my complete support and admiration. You're doing great - keep at it :)

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#206

Oh jesus christ, the constant whining! This is science. This is how it works. Maybe there's nothing else to discover, maybe it will take us 100 years, we don't know, that's why it's called research.

>Maybe there's nothing else to discover This is fundamentally wrong. We know the Standard Model is not the final theory of Physics so there are still things to discover.

> This is fundamentally wrong. We know the Standard Model is not the final theory of Physics so there are still things to discover.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#Steelmanning

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#207
post #72
post #6

I only have an amateur interest in physics, so I'm sorry if this sounds dumb, but I often think about what if we've reached as far as we can go within the current framework of physics? This is more meta-science than actual science, but what if we made some decisions very early in the development of physics and mathematics and we need to revisit those?

That's not the problem we face though. Consider the following: For all terrestrial phenomena that we have observe so far we have a theory of everything. In order to put matter into a state where it behaves in such a way that you can tell the difference between two competing theories that describe the world, you have to build the LHC. Anything less than that and the theories all are perfectly good at describing what w…

We used to make gasoline by heating oil very very hot and separating it. As long as you can keep it away from oxygen we don’t explode.

But now we have catalysts that allow us to get more gas from the same oil, and with less heat. Less energy for a bigger gain.

Big, hot, smashy, explodey things are good for a proof of concept, but for a practical application we want to make them smaller and lower energy (per unit) then scale them up huge (more units) and keep the energy down (magnitude + per unit).

Can you make these particles in a different environment? Can you move some of the embodied energy into a material? Can you reuse that material? All of these are good questions. If we answer them then the next LHC maybe doesn’t have to be an order of magnitude bigger and power hungry in order to see over the next horizon. Maybe 2x would do it.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#208
post #198
post #46

Stagnation of scientific fields is normal and can last many years. In that time, little anomalies pile up, are swept under the rug, and largely forgotten. To admit anomalies can ruin careers, after all. Eventually someone (often very young/inexperienced) comes along and upends the field by proposing a different model or doing the experiment whose weight breaks the camels back. What's new here is the scale of the work…

Fortunately, this new table-top Higgs discovery was not very expensive. Anything requiring the resources of the LHC or more will be far from spontaneous. https://www.livescience.com/magnetic-higgs-relative-discover...

The reporting on that one was pretty terrible.

They discovered a quasi-particle, a behavior of some bulk matter that behaves like a Higgs. Not the same thing at all as the LHC's Higgs discovery.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasiparticle

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#209
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the effort it would be easier to build one around the Earth. Double it up as a driveable highway, rail and electrical infrastructure (and then you can use solar power sold on a global market where one side is always in daylight).

Um... doesn't it produce synchrotron radiation while operating? I'm not sure that you want to be driving on that...

Good ol' corporate lobbying will make that a non-issue

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#210
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the inequality backwards!

Mathematically, yes. But in terms of value, no.

An economist might notate this as "0.000 ≻ 0.00".

Curly comparison operators like "≻" (U+227B SUCCEEDS) are often used specifically to avoid ambiguity with traditional comparison operators like ">". See: https://www.oeconomist.com/blogs/daniel/wp-content/uploads/2...

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