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Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

science.org

121–130 of 316 posts

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven't found nothing. They've found something, which is nothing. They've looked, been able to rule out some hypotheses of what they might find, and have established some evidence against others. Progress achieved, and the search continues.

This. This author, who should know better, is suggesting that the only "success" is a new discovery. This is patent nonsense. Every time a hypothesis is ruled out, and every time a hypothesis is ruled out with greater confidence, the experiment has succeeded. What is true is that discoveries drive public excitement and public support for additional funding. That is a political problem and it is solvable. If Western g…

>That is a political problem and it is solvable. If Western governments can find the public support for trillions in military expenditures, I am confident that it can be found for the comparably meager budgets of the scientific establishment.

Is it solvable? Humans are notoriously bad at certain things and investing in things that aren't showing interesting results is one of them. How many companies will cut something that prevents problems because they don't see problems?

If you want to solve this, you would need to do it the same way the MIC has solved military funding, by ensuring continued funding of science is necessary for politicians to be re-elected. But that borders close enough to corruption I'm not sure the scientists who need the funding will be agreeable to it, to say nothing of the difficulty engineering this.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does fundamental mean in this case?

I'm not a physicist; but the GP mentioned consciousness as an alternative to matter as the fundamental "substance". Well, I've come across that idea before; in certain kinds of Buddhism, consciousness is considered fundamental, the senses are created by consciousness, and the material world is projected by consciousness through the senses. Well, this was explained to me in the context of a particular type of tantric…

...so you're just using "Brahma" to refer to the computer that is running the simulation that is the universe. And when the simulation becomes aware of its own condition, it becomes conscious?

This is just rephrasing of the symulation hypothesis in mystical terms and is just as useless as the symulation hypothesis itself (regardless if it's "true" or not).

There's some valuable deeper stuff in hindu and buddhist philosophies, but this set of ideas isn't it (neither valuable nor actually deep, just "exotic" sounding to an extent).

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#123
post #118

I really thought I'd see meaningful progress on harmonizing quantum mechanics and relativity or some of these other "big" problems in fundamental physics but now I'm not so sure. This by the way is a good reason not to dump tens of billions into a successor to the LHC. We simply don't know what we're looking for. Despite a number of significant upgrades we still haven't found anything that breaks the Standard Model.…

> What is time? What is space? What really is mass? What is a force? These are things we can describe the effects of but not really what they are.

That's how models work. Even a unifying theory would not satisfyingly answer those questions.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#124
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. This author, who should know better, is suggesting that the only "success" is a new discovery. This is patent nonsense. Every time a hypothesis is ruled out, and every time a hypothesis is ruled out with greater confidence, the experiment has succeeded. What is true is that discoveries drive public excitement and public support for additional funding. That is a political problem and it is solvable. If Western g…

The problem isn't that "finding nothing" isn't progress. The problem is that "finding nothing" is terrible progress-per-dollar. If you're still having trouble with that concept, peer into the alternate universe where the LHC actually provided enough data to nail down the Theory of Everything. Now that would be some progress-per-dollar to celebrate. There's a contingent of people who just don't want to think about "ho…

What are the alternatives? Better weapons, better ad targeting systems, better gambling hidden behind a veneer of gaming on mobile? We can look at where our government and our society currently allocates money and find that the allocations looks bad enough that even building a bigger particle accelerator that might not find anything is an improvement overall. As a singular species, I think we would be better for going down that route given the average of what would be given up.

Problem is that humanity is not unified for our own betterment, so that ends up being a bad metric to judge actions upon. I think you are right in the outcome, it would mean losing influence, and even if we get funding it'll likely be diverted from the areas we least want it diverted from. You're probably right and I find that unsatisfactory.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#125
This is such a CERN thing to say, lol.

"Bluh bluh the ILC and muon colliders aren't real! Neutrinos are fake!! Low energy particle physics is a lie!"

Also this article is weird because phase 2 for the LHC is under way. Currently run 3 is happening and just started but this article talks like the beam upgrade isn't happening.

Also particle physics has gone far more than 10 years between major discoveries.

I'm gonna guess this author is yet another person who needs to stop whining about supersymmetry not happening. Like the only point the article makes (but makes it obliquely) is that supersymmetry is no longer a good motivator of higher energy beams. However, all our theories still break down at that level. So there's still a crap ton of things to explore.

I'm somewhat concerned that Science would go this click-bait with an article. The mood is hardly a nightmare.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#126
post #45

Why would this be a nightmare, isn't this good? They know they're going down the wrong path and can probably correct?

The prospect of actually "finishing" physics could be a nightmare for those working in it. I had a friend who was a brilliant pure mathematician, his teachers and friends agreed he fully deserved to do a PhD in complex analysis - but complex analysis was essentially done in the 19th century, there's just not a lot of research opportunities there.

I have a friend who is a professor with a PhD in complex analysis. Multivariable complex analysis (along with the theories of complex manifolds and analytic spaces) is very far from over.

Heck, one of the Millennium Problems (the Hodge conjecture) is in complex geometry (granted, in the more algebraically flavoured part of it).

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#127
post #27

At least they are finding nothing and confirming they are finding nothing. Less scrupulous operators might be always finding something even if its not there. So that's a sign of good science. Maybe there's something they haven't found because there's so much data? Mix things up and look again? Change assumptions? Or as someone I know likes to say to various smaller humans: have you looked around the couch? Really? Ar…

> Have you had a good look? It's difficult to explain, but they[1] tried very hard. For example the electron has an electric charge but it's also like a small magnet. In an ideal elementary particle, the value of the magnet is 2 * something. In a real elementary particle the value is almost-2 * something, so they are measuring the almost-2, and it's call g [2]. For an electron, the measured value of g is 2.0023193043…

gus_massa: Since you are likely an expert, could you recommend a resource that explains how you use the Lagrangian equation for the standard model [1] to actually compute a predicted value for the electron's g ?

An elementary resource that goes through basic steps for a computer scientist (non expert in QFT) would be a great. A simpler particle than electron is also ok, but I'd love to understand how you mess with that equation.

[1] http://nuclear.ucdavis.edu/~tgutierr/files/stmL1.html

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#128

Oh jesus christ, the constant whining! This is science. This is how it works. Maybe there's nothing else to discover, maybe it will take us 100 years, we don't know, that's why it's called research.

>Maybe there's nothing else to discover This is fundamentally wrong. We know the Standard Model is not the final theory of Physics so there are still things to discover.

If you think the Simulation Hypothesis has any merit whatsoever, you should consider the possibility that the Simulation does not have a fully-consistent engine, just one that was "close enough".

Note, of course, that the same could be true in a coincidentally-generated universe, as well as a deistic or theistic one (the latter two being effectively indistinguishable from a Simulation).

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#130

This is such a CERN thing to say, lol. "Bluh bluh the ILC and muon colliders aren't real! Neutrinos are fake!! Low energy particle physics is a lie!" Also this article is weird because phase 2 for the LHC is under way. Currently run 3 is happening and just started but this article talks like the beam upgrade isn't happening. Also particle physics has gone far more than 10 years between major discoveries. I'm gonna gu…

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