Earlier quoted context omitted.
I couldn't find anything relevant regarding my question. If you have a source, please post it.
whatisabortion.com
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Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
291–300 of 387 posts
Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
What matters the most is the cohesion, functioning and productivity of society, which is unaffected by circumcision. The notion of consent is arbitrary. You could also regard religious cults as primary, then you would need their consent to imposing your personal aesthetics.
That mindset could be used to justify all sorts of barbarism. The beginning of humanity's downfall was when we invented "society"
Actual barbarism would impair the functioning and productivity of society. The harm in this case is so negligible that it does not matter.
Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
The only community that practices this archaic ritual is in NYC, so I'm not sure the specificity matters in this case. Let me also point out that the community is estimated to comprise 250K, "many" though not all of whom practice this. Avoiding granularity, there are approximately 7 million Jews in the US, which means this 250K community represents roughly 4% of all Jews. Given that (from what I gather) all examples…
>This is at most commonplace within a fringe group If you describe the practitioners of this as a "fringe group", on what basis do you consider the comparison ( not even identification ) above to a ( hypothetical! ) "cult" offensive? And do followers of small religions which have been stigmatized with the label "cult" not also deserve the same respect for their beliefs and protection from discrimination as other reli…
I think my gripe is the same as all racist comments. Applying something that's true for a small subset to the whole group. If you want to be specific about what type of Jews support this practice, it's a very specific community of Ultra Orthodox Jews. I tend to fall on the side of all extremism being bad, so if someone wants to say the most extreme practitioners of a given religion are bad, then that's fine. But one should not don't talk about Jews as a whole when it is but a small subset within the Ultra Orthodox community.
Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm a circumcised male who has decided to have all 3 male children circumcised. As a Jew, if I may weigh on this, you have my background for an conflicts or biases. Also, maybe content warning is in order for genital mutiliation. 1) It is absolutely not common practice to allow a mohel to orally suck the blood out of an infant's penis. If it's practiced at all, it is only in extremely fringe groups of Jews, not just…
There is a more common version which uses a glass pipette for the suction stage, in order (presumably) to avoid direct contact between mouth and wound, but crucially, this offers little or no hygiene advantage compared to the full-on ritual. The prevalence of either version, however, is of little consequence, considering that they are both legally permitted and widely defended.
Not all mohels use the pipette, but what make you think using a sterile glass instrument is less hygienic than using one's mouth? And again you say both practices are widely defended. Who is defending oral suction outside of this fringe enclave of Ultra Orthodox Jews?
Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
“Babies feeling pain is something that should be self-evident, shouldn't it?” I have yet to understand the historical underpinnings of this phenomenon, but as someone who deals with chronic pain, doctors don’t seem to be aware that people feel pain _in general_. I’m being sort of facetious, but any chronic pain community is full to the brim with stories of various medical professionals being skeptical of patients’ pa…
> as someone who deals with chronic pain, doctors don’t seem to be aware that people feel pain _in general_. I don't know your situation, but I wonder if it seems this way because doctors don't have many options for treating chronic pain. There are medications for acute pain, but when you use them chronically over many years—well, that's how we ended up with the Opioid epidemic.
I think you are correct, and that behavior is to the patients’ detriment.
Personally, I worked myself into the ground trying to both advance my career and to manage increasingly alarming health issues.
I would have benefitted from some “real talk” but that’s not baked into the contemporary western transactional model of medicine outside of those areas that routinely deal with terminal illness.
Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm a circumcised male who has decided to have all 3 male children circumcised. As a Jew, if I may weigh on this, you have my background for an conflicts or biases. Also, maybe content warning is in order for genital mutiliation. 1) It is absolutely not common practice to allow a mohel to orally suck the blood out of an infant's penis. If it's practiced at all, it is only in extremely fringe groups of Jews, not just…
> Is it worse than giving a 6-month old pierced ears? Is it worse than travelling through the birth canal and having your umbilical cord severed? Since you asked the question, I’ll give what I think is the obvious answer: yes, of course it’s far worse than both of those things. By the way, I wouldn’t pierce a baby’s ears either, but at least that heals over and leaves minimal lasting damage. You can’t get foreskin ba…
There are medical procedures parents must decide to pursue or not, many are voluntary. Should I get my toddler's fremulum snipped even if there's no guarantee it helps their speech? Should teeth be extracted to help straighten out other teeth even if it results in weeks of pain? Are you saying that straight teeth are of more value than religious identity?
There are many hard choices a parent must make; I think circumcision is singled out because it bears cultural and religious value but no clear medical value. So let's get down to the core of this discussion: ritual circumcision bears religious and cultural value and that's pretty much it. So long as it's done safely, of course. If you want to debate the biological merits of circumcision, you're missing the religious or cultural value.
> What is the downside of leaving it until the age of 18 when they can decide to get it done if they want?
My understanding is that if you wait until 18, the procedure is much more involved/more difficult, more in terms of pain and in terms of health risk. Judaism puts health above all other factors, whether it's driving to seek medical attention on shabbat, or not increasing the risk of infection in newborns. Oral suction goes against the highest Jewish principle. If circumcision caused harm - bodily or psychologically - Jews (or most would not practice it. I'm not sure I understand the physical or psychical harm done
Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As a doctor, you’re probably going to become cynical after a while. As my go to story on these sorts of issues, my partner had an ER doctor tell them that they hadn't been stabbed. The fact that there was an open wound oozing blood and multiple witnesses was not sufficient evidence. That wound was obviously a diabetic sore. That my partner is not diabetic was also a lie and the fact that their medical records showe…
How do some people end up making clearly counterproductive interpretations that ignore not only evidence in general, but clear evidence of harm to others? I remember a Google employee changed a popular font for headings. It broke the layout on a very large number of websites. Several people discussed this with the employee, suggesting the font should be forked rather than force-updated. The employee engaged, but refu…
Your use of they makes this almost incomprehensible.
Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#298Quoted post unavailable.
It doesn’t matter if it had rights; it’s rights wouldn’t override the pregnant person’s rights.
Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
>"People tend to instinctively anthropomorphize, and this instinct is particularly strong when it comes to our offspring." I don't want to come across as snide when I ask this, but why would it be wrong to anthropomorphize a fellow human being?
That's a fair question. And I'm not saying it is wrong, only that it might be. Let me give a slightly less fraught example: we have an instinct to "honor our dead" and not to "desecrate their bodies." Does that make sense? The dead person doesn't care. Does it even make sense to talk about a dead "person"? One might argue that no dead thing can be a person, it's just a (dead) thing that was once a person and still ha…
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Re: Infants' sense of pain is recognized, finally (1987)
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
Double jaw surgery. I had it last year for sleep apnea. I am not overweight, but had recessed jaws. If you do too, the surgery is worth pursuing.
Interesting. I've heard recovery from jaw surgery can be trying. What was your experience like?
It was certainly not easy. I took 5 weeks off of work! It’s not in my nature to stop working for so long, so that was a strange experience. Recovery has been good. I look better now, so that’s awesome...a good side effect! I have some remaining “weird feeling” in my lower left chin area, but it doesn’t really bother me. I am 11 months post-op now and get my braces off next month. Overall I’d definitely recommend the survey if it’s medically warranted. It absolutely was for me.