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As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

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Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#61
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, the dysfunction (unemployment) on which capitalists rely, because it scares people into taking shitty deals, is a bit less of a problem... but it's also causing other dysfunctions, because it turns out that this is a shitty system.

Well, if you want uncontrolled inflation, keep advocating for policies that push unemployment below the rate of sustainable full employment. It seems to be making people happy, after all. Not like there are hundreds of years of economic history to learn from...

Ah yes, people getting jobs is what caused inflation. Not the trillions printed and given to scammy upper classes through fraudulent PPP loans and artificially low interest rates.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#62
post #55

I think Western academia is mostly reliant on immigration. Few natives would accept the low pay/high workload combination that is a postdoc, but for an immigrant from a third world country it might be an amazing opportunity. Same reason most fruit and berry pickers also are immigrants.

Don't even know where to begin...but according to this [1] less than 5% of students in the US are international students.

1 - https://www.fwd.us/news/international-students/

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#63
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like he went ABD. In the US, PhDs can take 6-8+ years. There are some shitty advisors who delay their students' graduations to get additional low-wage labor. Also, the academic job market is terrible and has been for 30+ years, so it takes a full year just to do the search.

Expanding the acronym for non-academia, ABD is "all but dissertation". After the first 2-3 years of a PhD program, the coursework is finished, you're into mostly independent research, and so you've completed "all but dissertation". This is a nebulous time that could be as short as 1-2 years, and could be as long as 5-10 years. The shorter durations tend to be in the sciences, and the longer durations in the humanitie…

Isn't ABD status the time from successfully proposing a dissertation to a specific committee until successfully defending that dissertation in front of that committee?

The former step is intended to clearly define what is sufficient work. In effect, it is the contract that eliminates some of the risk of the advisor's whim.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We produce more PhDs than needed by either academia or industry. I don't think so - industry can't hire enough PhDs. In my field (programming languages) shortage of qualified people is a bit of a problem at the moment! We wish there were more being produced.

I'm genuinely curious, does the work you are hiring for really require a PhD? To put it a different way, if you and the current employees in your job all started immediately after finishing your undergrad degree would you be any worse at your job?

It doesn't literally require a PhD (I'm not sure how that would even work - unless it was regulated by the government!) but it does require context on the state of the art in the field, and a network of peers to talk to. You get that from doing a PhD. If you can get it otherwise, then great, but that's pretty hard to do in practice.

I've worked with people without even a high-school diploma in my compilers team, so I'm not snobby, just realistic that to succeed you need things and that a PhD is a great way to get them.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We produce more PhDs than needed by either academia or industry. I don't think so - industry can't hire enough PhDs. In my field (programming languages) shortage of qualified people is a bit of a problem at the moment! We wish there were more being produced.

Most Ph.D.s are unemployable in the field that they did Ph.D. in. There is only say very small pool Ph.D. topics which are needed in industry like ML, distributed system, pharmacy etc. Most of the Ph.D. is in fields like humanities, psycology, physics etc. doesn't have many openings in industry.

100% agree with you. In some areas you literally need to move to another country because there are no options in academia in your country

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the helplessness of this. You have agency. You also have responsibility. You have a chemistry phd. You don't have to build your career on other people's crushed financial futures. Either find a job where you can pay people well or find a job where you don't need to manage other people's labor to stay employed. I have A LOT of dubious pet projects I could convince NSF to fund and would love to work on if I had…

> Leave academia and find a company who will fund your work. This is the weakness in your argument. Not all of science is interesting to the private sector. I worked for a large company once that in the past had large labs for researching charge transfer and other fundamental physics. When I toured those labs, they were all empty, with broken and unused machines. I know this site focuses on computers and tech. But th…

> Not all of science is interesting to the private sector.

More helplessness.

My research area is famously hard to fund even within academia, so I substantially changed the way that I frame my research and the type of work I was proposing. I still do the most important bits of pushing advances in my field, but there's a lot of auxiliary work that has immediate value as well.

It's less fun, it's CERTAINLY more humbling, and it's a lot more labor. But it provides both short-term and long-term value.

BTW: if you want to do work no one will fund, that's fine. Just at least acknowledge that your largest funding source is the massively under-paid labor of 20-35 year olds.

> Thats around the starting salary of school teachers and many other professions.

Your post-docs are >= 28, have graduate degrees, and have several years of research experience. Also, "teachers and many other professions" almost NEVER sign fixed term contracts that require them to move all over the country/world.

BTW, what is your university's pension plan like? Many teachers have great pension plans (that actually make sense to use since they have jobs that last more than 2-3 years). If comparing to industry, what's your 401K match and stock purchase program?

You can't even beat the working conditions and wages that mediocre 22 year olds can get right out of college in a famously under-compensated field. "My PhD employees would be substantially better off as secondary school teachers" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you want uncontrolled inflation, keep advocating for policies that push unemployment below the rate of sustainable full employment. It seems to be making people happy, after all. Not like there are hundreds of years of economic history to learn from...

Ah yes, people getting jobs is what caused inflation. Not the trillions printed and given to scammy upper classes through fraudulent PPP loans and artificially low interest rates.

It's both.

Do you think nominal wage gains coupled with real wage declines makes people happy? Check consumer sentiment polling which just hit an all time low, why don't you?

It's funny to see society broadly reject the impact of covid era policy, yet some advocate to do more and more of it.

Fed kept rates low in pursuit of unsustainably low unemployment, by the way, motivated by pressure from progressives

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#68
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expanding the acronym for non-academia, ABD is "all but dissertation". After the first 2-3 years of a PhD program, the coursework is finished, you're into mostly independent research, and so you've completed "all but dissertation". This is a nebulous time that could be as short as 1-2 years, and could be as long as 5-10 years. The shorter durations tend to be in the sciences, and the longer durations in the humanitie…

Isn't ABD status the time from successfully proposing a dissertation to a specific committee until successfully defending that dissertation in front of that committee? The former step is intended to clearly define what is sufficient work. In effect, it is the contract that eliminates some of the risk of the advisor's whim.

Some people say ABD is 'all but defended' as in you wrote your thesis you just didn't do a defence, some people say ABD is 'all but dissertation' in that you didn't get the point of writing the thesis. That's a pretty big difference. The former is you basically did your entire PhD, the latter is you didn't really start it.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#69
>Postdoc salaries are frequently based on what the U.S. National Institutes of Health sets as its standard, “and that’s pretty low,” says Daniel Wolf Savin, a physicist and senior research scientist at Columbia University who is currently struggling to fill five postdoc positions. When hiring, he competes with national labs that offer up to $20,000 more per year in salary. “If we put in a research grant with a postdoc salary that they pay at a national lab, the program office is going to look at it and say, ‘Look, I can’t give you this much money. It’s so out of line with what everyone else is asking for,’” he says.

I never understood why there are salary guidelines in the first place. Why should a lab with $200k/year to spend on postdoc salaries be unable to hire a single postdoc at $200k/year? Current guidelines stipulate the lab must instead hire 4 postdocs at $50k/year.

At the end of the day, research quality is what matters. The research output of a single excellent postdoc worth $200k/year could easily exceed the total output of four mediocre postdocs each worth $50k/year.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leave academia and find a company who will fund your work. This is the weakness in your argument. Not all of science is interesting to the private sector. I worked for a large company once that in the past had large labs for researching charge transfer and other fundamental physics. When I toured those labs, they were all empty, with broken and unused machines. I know this site focuses on computers and tech. But th…

> Not all of science is interesting to the private sector. More helplessness. My research area is famously hard to fund even within academia, so I substantially changed the way that I frame my research and the type of work I was proposing. I still do the most important bits of pushing advances in my field, but there's a lot of auxiliary work that has immediate value as well. It's less fun, it's CERTAINLY more humblin…

>> Not all of science is interesting to the private sector.

> My research area is famously hard to fund even within academia, so I substantially changed the way that I frame my research and the type of work I was proposing.

I don't see the private sector funding ethnomusicology, philosophy, ecology, social history, ...

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