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Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

theguardian.com

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Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#91

Post by engineer_22 »

theplumber wrote: post #74
kinghtown wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. It’s it ain’t so bad then you’d think there would be more pride in it. But animal cruelty is actually one of the weaker arguments for becoming vegan because it requires, as I said earlier, an a-ha realization that animals are aware, intelligent, feel pain and sadness, deserve more from us as the stewards of this…

>> Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. I don't buy that. People are sensitive to certain images. I can't stand to dental surgery videos either and definitely I don't think children would get any benefit from watching such material but that doesn't make dental surgery something people shouldn't do. That being said as a child I've been exposed to an…

I don't think you're a bad person.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#92

Post by LocalH »

shakes_mcjunkie wrote: post #2

I had a conversation recently with a friend about the classic cats vs. dogs, which species is more intelligent. It was surprising to me how dismissive he was about cat intelligence and adamant that they were nowhere near dogs' intelligence, mostly based on the ability to train dogs. I've clicker trained my cats to sit and also to follow my finger. Searching around the net and YouTube you can find cats learning all ki…

I consider cats more intelligent than dogs, frankly. Dogs seem to have evolved or been bred for obedience, as they are much easier to train than cats. I consider cats to be much more autonomous than dogs.

As an ADHD human, I strongly identify with cats. Sometimes I wish I could experience life as a comfortable, loved house cat. Maybe I will next time

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#93

Post by LocalH »

cpsns wrote: post #9
shakes_mcjunkie wrote: post #2

I had a conversation recently with a friend about the classic cats vs. dogs, which species is more intelligent. It was surprising to me how dismissive he was about cat intelligence and adamant that they were nowhere near dogs' intelligence, mostly based on the ability to train dogs. I've clicker trained my cats to sit and also to follow my finger. Searching around the net and YouTube you can find cats learning all ki…

> I find myself shocked by how little regard people have for the intelligence of other animals. If people readily accepted the intelligence of many mammals, much less other animals, they would have to confront some very serious cognitive dissonance and moral dilemmas. That said, I've found many dog folks are super dismissive of the idea of cats being smart and I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps part of the problem is…

I see no moral dilemma in eating meat, even if one considers animals to be sentient and intelligent. I see plenty of moral dilemmas in the infrastructure we have developed to provide meat to the masses. I (like everyone else) am not a 100% morally good being, and I still eat meat even knowing the horrors that happen in meat processing facilities. We are part of nature, no matter how much we try to elevate ourselves above it. I don't feel sad when a powerful predator consumes a small prey, as it is the way of nature.

Also, consider the possibility that plant life also has sensation and subjective experience, that is wildly different from anything we could actually understand as such. Wouldn't it be equally as immoral to take that life, if we presume that it is morally repugnant to merely eat meat in and of itself, due to taking the life of a conscious, potentially sentient being? Life is life, right?

Also, consider that not everyone can actually eat vegetables. I find the majority of vegetables to be instantly and extremely repugnant. As in, the only time that elapses is the time for the signals to make their way from my tongue and nose to my brain. This is not by choice, as when I was smaller I would happily eat most vegetables. This was something that changed in me at some point for which I have no explanation as to why. Perhaps the Ritalin I took for a few years affected me in an unexpected way? I have no idea.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#94

Post by kinghtown »

ttrmw wrote: post #69
kinghtown wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a 145 kg bench press with 17 inch biceps. How about you?

Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption. Any suggested reading for someone like me?

I’d suggest looking at some plant based diet athletes like Kylie Irving and see what he’s doing. I’m not going to lie or pretend that egg whites have a 1:1 equivalent in vegan nutrition but I would suggest taking a cold hard look at your performance requirements if you are competing on a professional level and if it really is all that necessary to squeeze that extra 3% performance edge or whatever it may be by eating meat or dairy. Maybe check out some vegan fitness youtubers or watch The Game Changers to get started. I’m weightlifting and running and I feel better and stronger as a vegan.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#95

Post by mistercow »

shakes_mcjunkie wrote: post #2

I had a conversation recently with a friend about the classic cats vs. dogs, which species is more intelligent. It was surprising to me how dismissive he was about cat intelligence and adamant that they were nowhere near dogs' intelligence, mostly based on the ability to train dogs. I've clicker trained my cats to sit and also to follow my finger. Searching around the net and YouTube you can find cats learning all ki…

My cat also knows a few tricks. A few years back, he had fatty liver disease, which is caused by a vicious cycle where the cat won't eat, which makes them sick and suppresses their appetite. The first thing you try when this happens is to jump start their appetite by encouraging them to eat however you can.

Ultimately, I couldn't get enough calories in him, and we had to do a feeding tube. But before that, I was able to get him to eat some treats. He wouldn't eat them if I just gave them to him, but if I had him do "shake" first (the only trick he was up to), and then gave the treats as a reward, he would eat them.

I found it fascinating that the reward had taken on its own meaning for him. You might naively model training with rewards as "the cat is hungry and knows that treats bring food". But he didn't want food. After years of practicing tricks, it's like being rewarded became its own positive experience for him, and the ritual of eating the treat is part of that experience, independent of whether or not he actually wants to eat.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#96

Post by cpsns »

novok wrote: post #55
kinghtown wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

Vegan's take their moral stance / religion and then try to push it as a health thing with biased reasoning, which can lead to general negative human health consequences as it percolates through via policy. Predators exist, and humans whether we like it or not are scavenger omnivorous predators. There aren't vegan bears or indigenous vegan human tribes for a reason.

Humans have a choice and the ability to consider and reason about morality. It doesn't matter what we technically are, because we have a choice in what we eat and how we treat animals.

Vegan bears and native tribes are irrelevant, you live in a modern world/society and both are poor attempts at deflection that don't hold up under even the slightest scrutiny.

Even if you refuse to consider the argument for veganism, the way we treat the animals we eat is an abject horror, modern animal farming is indefensible.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#97

Post by prometheus76 »

nahuel0x wrote: post #67
polishdude20 wrote: post #15

I was surprised by the intelligence of a little spider I encountered the other day. As I was looking for my keys to enter the house, this little jumping spider was on the front door. As I approached the door he moved almost with anticipation. As I turned the keys, he got closer to the door edge. As I opened the door, he swung himself around the door and into the house ahead of me! At that point I decided if got this…

Also, the relationship between qualia and intelligence is a mystery. Maybe spiders or ants "feel" more or are more subjectively "alive" than us, or in a complete different qualia space. Maybe in qualia matters we are closer to rocks than them.

What is qualia? I've never heard that word before, and I don't want to go down some weird rabbit hole and get lost. Got any references you could share?

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#98

Post by gnramires »

logicchains wrote: post #75
kinghtown wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

>Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them Have you ever met cows in the farm/paddock? Most cows I've come across are huge assholes, like the kind of person that hangs around a bar trying to start fights. In my mind they deserve to be eaten.

Their benevolence aside, do you believe all assholes deserve to be killed? And what about the more problematic, all assholes deserve to suffer?

I think it's difficult to untangle their benevolence from their self-protection. But I did see several signs of curiosity and inter-species care between cows.

You also have to consider that we're the assholes :)

(Note: In that case, no, I don't think we should be killed, just improve)

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#99

Post by prometheus76 »

bitwize wrote: post #22
staticman2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think dogs have better social skills since they (well, wolves) evolved to form packs and help each other out. This can make them seem more intelligent. Cats are worse at communication as they evolved to be more solitary.

Cats are solitary hunters but they form colonies, and these colonies have social dominance hierarchies. They have sophisticated vocalization and body language that's perfectly comprehensible -- if you're a cat. They are not as well domesticated as dogs, so humans cannot read them as well as they can dogs without training themselves in cat communication. Domestication has altered the dog on the physiological level to…

Dogs will also follow the gaze of a person, which is unique to them, as far as I remember.

Cats will shit on your pillow if they are unhappy with the environment for some reason. That's particularly disturbing.

I have a cat and three dogs as pets and it's interesting to see how they all interact with us and with the world differently. Even the three dogs are unique. They are all different breeds and very different in size, so it's interesting to see what they have in common and what is unique to the individual dog.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#100

Post by prometheus76 »

sweetheart wrote: post #89
mromanuk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people readily accepted the intelligence of many mammals, much less other animals, they would have to confront some very serious cognitive dissonance and moral dilemmas. Not sure about that, lot of people are completely fine with human being killed for several reasons (punishment for robbery just to give you an example).

Sure, but people generally have a problem watching extreme senseless violence perpetrated against innocent people, which is more analogous to what happens to the animals that carnists eat.

I grew up on a farm. We were always grateful and a little sad when we slaughtered an animal, and we said a prayer for it when we slaughtered it. We always did our best to make our animals comfortable while alive, and made their death as quick as possible with as little suffering as possible.

Life survives on life. Something died so that you could live today. I think about that often, and I think that growing up confronting the reality of surviving as a person by eating food that was once alive in a very immediate way helps me not take food for granted and to always be grateful for the daily sacrifices that are made so that I can live.

In my will, I have outlined that I want my body to be put into a burlap sack with no embalming fluid and be returned to earth as soon as possible after my death so that I can be part of the same chain of life for other living things. Life lives by the death of other living things. We cannot change that, but we can at least be grateful and present with that reality.

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