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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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511–520 of 553 posts

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#511
post #7

A fascinating premise, and matches what I saw as an engineering director. The best just get bored and move on. I think many teams are unaware how much extra value is possible by retaining existing employees vs hiring new ones. Each year I'd try to make sure I was "making them an offer they couldn't refuse" with new interesting challenges, new tech, plenty of personal research time, as much pay increase as I could pos…

its not just the best ones. If you remove people from the grind for 1-2 days a week, give them a small budget and enough autonomy to do what they want, most people will fix shit that bugged them for a long time. The main problem is how micromanage-y the current development processes are. Everything has to be a ticket/user story and has to be planned and approved by some people that never even wrote a single line of c…

> Everything has to have some immediate business impact.

Or more specifically, explainable business impact.

But it's hard to explain how the code has become horrible and needs a refactor to makes it easier on devs, reducing stress, reducing likelihood of both bugs, and developers leaving.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#512
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not just the best ones. If you remove people from the grind for 1-2 days a week, give them a small budget and enough autonomy to do what they want, most people will fix shit that bugged them for a long time. The main problem is how micromanage-y the current development processes are. Everything has to be a ticket/user story and has to be planned and approved by some people that never even wrote a single line of c…

> has to be planned and approved It gets worse, too - as long as I've worked as a software developer there's been some sort of time tracking system in place, and it has to be planned up-front, and has to work out to at least 40 hours (after they "negotiate" your estimates down). Which leaves no time for the unplanned stuff that inevitably comes up. This always goes in a cycle like this: 1. Management demands that eve…

> after they "negotiate" your estimates down

I hate this. An estimate is an estimate, there is no negotiation, negotiation an estimate is simply interfering with it, making it less objective. It can also be a trick to put pressure on developers.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you're asked to do something, someone has presumably thought it through and accepted the risk to the business/client. I'm not sure I'd keep someone on the team who did a branch AWOL and proposed the idea after the fact. Doesn't show much respect for the team, that time could've been spent working towards goals agreed by the whole team. If you don't have a lead or management environment with ears open to ex…

If you consider such behavior 'AWOL' then you've bought into modern development micromanagement and may be part of the issue. That perspective doesn't believe any degree of autonomy and desires drone teams who just crank out on orders. I would never work in such a role or environment, but to each their own I suppose. There's also an assumption buried in there that any time spent working is somehow owned by you, your…

> Part of the issue

What issue? My projects are delivered on time, on budget and to the customers expectations without undue risk or unpredictability. That's my job.

Nobody on my teams would say I micromanage them, everyone has a large degree of autonomy within a framework of shared goals and shared values that keeps efforts working towards cohesive results.

With autonomy comes responsibility to the team, business, customer and every stakeholder ... so yes, i'd consider it AWOL to undertake work that doesn't respect the input of everyone else by getting agreement beforehand.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWE salaries are anomalously high whereas they would need to be anomalously low to fit in to the parent up-thread's comment.

Not outside of a small number of US tech cities and certainly not outside the US. My first coding job paid about $30k for example. I am currently a senior engineer earning less than a SV graduate. My pay has been largely comparable to a plumber for my whole career. Not for lack of trying. I suspect if whatever red tape os preventing US companies from remote hires world wide happening en masse, then non-MAGMA employee…

> Not outside of a small number of US tech cities and certainly not outside the US.

I live in London and graduated from a reputable university (so most of my friends have decent jobs). I make considerably more money than any of my peers except for those in a few select careers such as finance and law. I make a lot more than those in other technical career paths like mechanical engineering. And certainly compared with "generic graduate jobs" such as consulting companies or the civil service.

My first job wasn't well paid either (about £19k), but that quickly increased over 2-3 years in a way that salaries in other careers didn't seem to.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#515
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse, industry is routinely bashing on CS degrees because they don't turn people into framework X-ready candidates. It's getting a little tiring just how little credit is given to the idea of "maybe these tools can be learned in a reasonable amount of time by people with a degree showing they can pick things up rather quickly".

Yes but I interview for a role where we dont have set languages: we're a small optimisation team working across system when they reach capacity bottleneck and we do JS, C#, Java, C++, PL/SQL fixes completely transparently, we've slowly learned that languages really dont matter all that much for performance tuning as much as programmers mishandling which are identical in all of them (hash map loops, abusive recursion,…

>> "anything can be learned in a reasonable amount of time"

I routinely say something to this affect in jobs for which I a interviewing. I tell them I am not an expert in anything, but I feel I can learn anything given enough time. The caveat is in some businesses time is the limiting factor and the business doesn't have the time for me to learn.

But I'd love to work for your company or one like it.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#516
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deeper roots that the hyperinflation or some temporary unemployment. Oh, and about this part, I think you underestimate the hyperinflation in 22-23 in Germany. Over a period of about 2-3 years, people who had been comfortably part of the upper middle class would lose EVERYTHING, and in many cases end up starving to death. That's not "temporary unemployment". Read this quote: - One particularly arresting story is th…

> people who had been comfortably part of the upper middle class would lose EVERYTHING, and in many cases end up starving to death The upper middle class own non-monetary assets, they are probably the least affected by inflation. > For the Germans, this left an impression that resembled the Shoah for the jews. No, not really and not even close. At least because the Weimar hyperinflation hasn’t caused mass starvation.…

This subthread was not my main reply, just an aspect I had left out in the other reponse.

> The upper middle class own non-monetary assets, they are probably the least affected by inflation.

First of all, don't confuse hyperinflation with regular inflation. Regular inflation is an indication of a rebalancing of an economy, with some mismanagement on top. Hyperinflation happens when the economic system collapses completely.

One difference is that during normal inflation, non-monetary assets often retain much of their value, while in hyperinflation only assets that help produce food and other essentials really matter (such as owning a farm, a factory, etc).

Middle class workers pre-inflation may have a house, a "save" job with a fixed income and some savings in the bank. When hyperinflation struck, they may have been able to sell the house, but the cash gained would be gone in a couple of weeks. The savings were also gone quickly, and many such jobs would either have salaries lagging behind inflation or people might get fired, unable to find similar work.

Meanwhile, workers in factories and on farms were more like "essential workers" during covid.

>> .... this left an impression ....

> No, not really and not even close.

If you read what you quoted, I was not referring to the effects on those that died, only those who remained. In other words, I was comparing the effect on the German people with the SURVIVORS of the holocaust, as well as on jews that were not directly affected.

These effects are primarily cultural. To this day, the German nation remains fiscally conservative due to the events of 2022-23, very reluctant to allow inflationary actions by the ECB, for instance (as experienced by Greece, 10 years ago).

You are right, of course, that the Holocaust was a larger event, even in terms of the cultural effects. But even if the wound of the hyperinflation was smaller, it was still many times greater than the scars after the 2008 crash in the West.

Maybe the number of actual deaths by starvation was limited, it did occur, especially with people unable to work a job (retired people). Also, even for those who did not die from lack of calories, many were left undernourished or malnourished, causing an uptick in deaths from infections, etc.

But as stated above, my main point is what effect it had on the survivors. Those who saw the previously affluent widdowed aunt fall from grace, having to beg her nephews and nieces for bread. Maybe having to refuse to giver her that bread, because your children were hungry, too.

Experiencing (either directly or through some newspaper) the humiliation when French soldiers entered Germany to confiscate assets when Germany could not (or would not) pay the reparations that was demanded, including seeing the Germans that were either shot or turned into refugees.

Seeing how rich were able to (and smart enough to) shifts their assets that would continue to be productive even during hyperinflation. While you, who were used to thinking that money in the Bank was the safest way to save, kept your money there.

And even if you did manage to secure just enough bread for your familiy to make it into 1924, you would hear stories or see pictures of those who did not, and feel the fear that something happened to you that would prevent you from showing up at the factory that, on most days, would pay you to work.

Such experiences leave deep mental scars, and will tend to harden a person and make them more tribal and aggressive. Make them perfect raw materials to be molded by demagoues like Hitler and Goebbels.

In the end, some did become evil monsters. Maybe some were even born that way. But to the extent that is was environmental, it was certainly not born from privilege. It was, just like in most other cases where the result is genocide, born from hardship and humiliation, combined with a strong feeling of resentment towards those who were seen as responsible.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, I agree with you that on the whole we're a bunch of spoiled crybabies. Totally grant you that. On the other hand, saying that the majority of the population is grinding in tough physical labour is just not true. Most other jobs are generic office jobs that don't need to be done (just like 80%+ of software engineering jobs don't need to be done). Most of us are just doing things for money. Are most people…

We need data for this. More importantly, we need data for how tough it is to get certain jobs. That means stuff like: * Time spent on finding a job * Time spent on studying in order to attain a job * Actual amount of hours worked (hard to get accurate data on it) * Actual amount of effort per hour (hard to operationalize) It's a very tough discussion to have, but I have a gut feeling that you're simplifying too much…

SWE is easy as fuck for the amount of money it gives.

Compare that to physics, chemistry, bio or mechanical engineering.

When I see SWE saying they know 10 different languages I see someone who is bragging that they know how to sum 1+1 1+2 1+3 (...) 1+10

No wonder people with no degree can learn how to code in a few months and get a nice paying job. Try that with any of the others I mentioned and you get nothing. Not with 1 year. Not with 2 years. Maybe with 3 years of studying.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#518
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

> Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. Nope this is an outdated opinion. You can do just as well or better in trades (source: my electrician buddy). If you’re referring to the FAANG salaries (sub 1%) you’re comparing to doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs in terms of opportunity cost. Your average joe programmer isn’t killing it like you seem to think, and they’d do just as well in t…

SWE is easy, can be fun, pays well, can be full remote, safe desk job. Usually other professions lack one or more of these.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like needing to ask to go to the toilet. It's degrading. Utterly disrespectful. You expect people to stick around?

Updating a dependency, refactoring some code, or just making a 'simple' change sets off a chain of events that affect other people. The other devs need to review the code, the QA team need to test it, and then regression test the rest of the app, the devops team need to deploy it, the legal team need to update the legal documentation that lists the licenses for the dependencies the code has, the technical writers nee…

> making a 'simple' change sets off a chain of events that affect other people

Not every change affect other people, but isn't that my call to decide? Also "simple" in quotes implies it isn't i.e. you aren't trusting what you are told.

> What looks like a small change to a developer is never actually a small change.

Not true, this is hyperbole. If the lawyers need to be consulted to change dependencies this is something a developer should know and account for. Why keep devs out of the loop?

I consult with other devs, QAs (if needed) & external teams, perhaps with a ticket if deemed necessary, other times just a PR. I run the (CI) regression, I schedule/announce and perform deployment (we have platform team, not "devops" which is generally done by the app devs), I write the app docs, we have no legal documentation that lists the licenses for the dependencies.

I do this as a dev - why should I not be able to recognise if a change is small or not? let alone never being able to.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the low hour anecdotes come overwhelmingly from Europe, where 45K is considered a high salary

Europe is a big place, 45k might be a lot of money in Romania, and it is below minimum wage in Switzerland. Software Engineers will still be pulling 100k+ in Europe with those 2 hour days.

Got any sources? I'd love to work for a place where that is possible (I'm EU located, poorly paid and working my ass off)
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