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Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

theguardian.com

61–70 of 148 posts

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#61
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegan here, too. It’s totally duh-level obvious that nonhumans are plenty smart to feel emotions that we shouldn’t inflict. I don’t have such optimism towards people. Look at how poorly we treat each other. If we actually had some strong empathetic tendencies as a species we wouldn’t kill each other. There are many species which don’t. Instead I’ve got a coworker who’s gladly told me about killing his cows calves in…

I wonder if a psychopaths would make better soldiers. I always thought that people are just different and their path (i.e serial climinal or great soldier or good manager) depends on the environment. That being said slaughtering cows doesn't seem that bad. After all there are such jobs at slaugherhouses. Perhaps he was just teasing you making it more dramatic.

> psychopaths would make better soldiers

No, not at all.

Soldiers work as part of a team, which is part of a larger team. You can't count on a psychopath to care about the team or the larger organization.

What (should) motivate a solider to kill is the same emotion as a sheep dog protecting the flock, or a mother bear protecting her cubs.

What motivates a psychopath to kill is harder to say, but it is not something which is generally recognized as morally good.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are vegan hunters around, too. People that hate the bio Industry yet still feel it’s allright to eat meat. Given that an animal has lived a good and free life and the death is swift.

No there aren't. I have no doubt the people you describe exist, but "vegan hunter" is a complete oxymoron unless you're talking about "hunting" berries. Even descriptivist dictionaries don't include any definition of vegan which allows for eating meat.

Ive heard the term for a lack of a better word and find it fair enough. But the point im making is that there are people that refuse to participate in the bio-industry due to ethical considerations, yet hunt for their own food and do so scarcely.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#63
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way is to simulate the experience of that with psychedelics or transcranial magnetic stimulation.

Genuine question: how would you go about simulating it in that manner? Are you suggesting that we might visualize or otherwise cognize an olfactory intelligence using those techniques? It seems to me that much of human "intelligence" is our superior ability to perceive patterns in visual and auditory sensory input, and then to process those perceived patterns in some manner. In that light, what might an olfactory "pa…

Great question.

Starting with the easier one, I don't know how to accomplish it with transcraniel magnetic stimulation, other than that, it can produce altered states of consciousness similar to psychedelics. I don't think we have enough insight into knowing how to adjust settings for a particular person to reliably get certain shifts in consciousness. Perhaps investigating along the lines of why and how someone can experience synthesia.

As far as psychedelics goes, we'd probably have to delve into the traditional practices that works with altered states of consciousness, and that all depends one one's tolerance for experiences that would be considered woo. Two that come to my mind are Tantra, and the shamanic practices involved with "shapeshifting" into animals.

In Tantric philosophy, pure consciousness descends into the manifest world through the five senses, and you see those representations as five downward triangles in the yantras. There's probably some yogi out there that have explored along those lines. Tantric methods can involve offerings of flowers and incense, so why wouldn't smell be involved?

With the shamanic practices, with the assistance of drumming or psychedelics (and keeping in mind the basis for shamanic practices is animism), the practitioner would seek out the archetypal intelligence of an animal, and request to form a relationship. If granted, one of the ways the practitioner learns the wisdom of that animal archetype is a kind of shifting of consciousness into that of the animal, while partially retaining the perspective of a human. If that animal's olfactory senses is a big part of its role in the ecology it inhabits, and the human is receptive to that, I think it is possible to experience what it is like to have smells that is usually inaccessible as humans.

As far as human's ability to process things with visual and auditory senses ... I'd say that whales and dolphins probably got us beat as far as auditory intelligence goes, and birds has us beat as far as visuals goes. Bird brains also seem more efficient than humans in terms of energy usages, and birds have to process five retinal cones compared to our three retinal cones. The unusual humans who have fully formed fourth retinal cones can already disginguish significantly more color tones than the rest of us ordinary humans. If someone wanted to experience what superior visual and audio experiences are, I'd say try the shamanic techniques to shapeshift into a whale or a parrot.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#64
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegan here, too. It’s totally duh-level obvious that nonhumans are plenty smart to feel emotions that we shouldn’t inflict. I don’t have such optimism towards people. Look at how poorly we treat each other. If we actually had some strong empathetic tendencies as a species we wouldn’t kill each other. There are many species which don’t. Instead I’ve got a coworker who’s gladly told me about killing his cows calves in…

I wonder if a psychopaths would make better soldiers. I always thought that people are just different and their path (i.e serial climinal or great soldier or good manager) depends on the environment. That being said slaughtering cows doesn't seem that bad. After all there are such jobs at slaugherhouses. Perhaps he was just teasing you making it more dramatic.

I'm not so sure about "better soldiers", but they'll probably make very iconic war criminals if drafted into the military. the co-worker that revels in murdering babies in front of mothers will surely make headlines.

I wouldn't think these war-criminals come out of nowhere. they probably get their head start in torturing neighbourhood cats, gloating about how much they love meat and don't care about the torture, and how they personally love to bash heads in[1] and murder children in front of mothers.

[1] https://theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/19/millions-of-...

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#65

I had a conversation recently with a friend about the classic cats vs. dogs, which species is more intelligent. It was surprising to me how dismissive he was about cat intelligence and adamant that they were nowhere near dogs' intelligence, mostly based on the ability to train dogs. I've clicker trained my cats to sit and also to follow my finger. Searching around the net and YouTube you can find cats learning all ki…

We mistake programmability for "intelligence" but not only for animals, but for humans too. If it does not execute the program it is stupid.

Our estimate for intelligence is a heuristic in the brain, firing on the same networks we would use. Which is why intelligence only ever can behave like us, exactly like us and in no other way. Mirror Neurons. If they do not fire that way, we early out and call it a day. Its energy efficient and i assume most animals do that too.

The tools with which we look for and on intelligence are deformed and often incapable of detecting it. Same goes for cats too though, they have zero empathy with prey. Mirror neurons are not firing for mice, but firing for their own kittens. Somewhere there is a switch.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#66

I had a conversation recently with a friend about the classic cats vs. dogs, which species is more intelligent. It was surprising to me how dismissive he was about cat intelligence and adamant that they were nowhere near dogs' intelligence, mostly based on the ability to train dogs. I've clicker trained my cats to sit and also to follow my finger. Searching around the net and YouTube you can find cats learning all ki…

I agree with your friend. Dogs have around twice as many cortical neurons as cats, and it shows. Interestingly, raccoons, which are the size of cats, have a comparable number of neurons in the cortex as dogs. And act like it as well. Which isn't to say cats are like, dumb creatures, and it's fine you like them more. Dogs are smarter though, according to me, your buddy, and zoologists, who unlike the three of us know…

Raccoons and bears have pretty impressive puzzle solving skills, as anyone who has tried to keep them out of a garbage can will note. Although bear strength is a bit of a crutch, there's also the whole escalating food puzzle game between them and hikers.

Cats, I think people just mistake their uncooperative nature for some sort of mysterious wise aloofness.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#67

I was surprised by the intelligence of a little spider I encountered the other day. As I was looking for my keys to enter the house, this little jumping spider was on the front door. As I approached the door he moved almost with anticipation. As I turned the keys, he got closer to the door edge. As I opened the door, he swung himself around the door and into the house ahead of me! At that point I decided if got this…

Also, the relationship between qualia and intelligence is a mystery. Maybe spiders or ants "feel" more or are more subjectively "alive" than us, or in a complete different qualia space. Maybe in qualia matters we are closer to rocks than them.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#68
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find myself shocked by how little regard people have for the intelligence of other animals. If people readily accepted the intelligence of many mammals, much less other animals, they would have to confront some very serious cognitive dissonance and moral dilemmas. That said, I've found many dog folks are super dismissive of the idea of cats being smart and I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps part of the problem is…

I do accept the intelligence of other kind of animals too but that does not necessarily mean that I know what it is. What I know is that sometimes I do see them, but not very commonly (although other people may know better than I do). I do not think that it is really a serious cognitive dissonance. It is not my intention to harm the bees, ants, etc outside (nor is it my intention to harm the trees). If they get insid…

Not killing spiders is actually a great thing, as if they are able to survive inside your house, that mean they have enough food to survive. Given the fact that they mostly eat bugs, mosquitos and other insects, they are quite beneficial indoors (that also means you probably have more insects in your house that you would feel comfortable with).

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#69
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegan's take their moral stance / religion and then try to push it as a health thing with biased reasoning, which can lead to general negative human health consequences as it percolates through via policy. Predators exist, and humans whether we like it or not are scavenger omnivorous predators. There aren't vegan bears or indigenous vegan human tribes for a reason.

I have a 145 kg bench press with 17 inch biceps. How about you?

Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption.

Any suggested reading for someone like me?

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#70

Anthropomorphism is the curse of our intelligence

Everyone always says this, but why? I hear how it is 'dangerous' to anthropomorphize animals by people like Joe Rogan constantly. Can you explain what is 'dangerous' about it? Or why we have to be 'careful' doing so? Genuinely interested. To me, the only downside is we might have to face the atrocities we commit in our daily life.

Some people seem to think that if humans aren't special, then they will be treated like animals. Which is quite ironic, if you consider human history.
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