Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#221

Post by makeitdouble » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:25 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #194

makeitdouble wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it be different if you purposefully tried every possible insult until the “right” one hits and has the other side die ? Or flooded the person by every means you can think of until it exceeds their capacity to ignore your insults ? There is an intentionality that you are not addressing, and is at the core of this law.

Is there any combination of words I could write to you that would kill you? That, to me, sounds like something from an SCP story, not the real world. Are you really suggesting that everyone has a secret password that will make them commit suicide?

I think that fundamentally yes, you could.

I see myself as a relatively stable person, but there will be topics and angles that touch me more than others. Someone digging through my post history should be enough to come with a general life profile and reasonable attack vectors.

We can keep a thick skin against attacks that are vague and/or indiscriminate, but it becomes harder when it’s more focused and resonates with thoughts we already have. You are right that one or two comments might not be much, but bullying isn’t about one-off acts, and any button that yielded a different reaction will be pushed again and again…

So yes, it’s not a fully random process to look for that “secret password”, the victim is online with an identity, and it comes down to how much effort is invested in trying to hurt them. Even worse when it’s a semi-public figure, or someone that exposed part of their everyday life.

Doing it enough times/for long enough, and there will be some chance to hit the victim during a vulnerable period (professional issues, friend/couple issues etc.). If they lose their place in society (lose their job, or are ostracized in their irl community), effects will compound.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#222

Post by minsc_and_boo » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:41 PM UTC

nonrandomstring wrote: post #209

minsc_and_boo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From GP above: >"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Japan enacting harsher punishments for cyber bullying is not a slippery slope into free speech infarction, as the harm principle has always been part of the philosophy. GP's stance is based on an increasingly common misconception (these days in the U.…

> increasingly common misconception (these days in the U.S. at least) I do dislike people who say "citation?" (and I don't wish to seem presumptuous) but can you give me any further links or prominent examples of that? Is it a social media thing? I don't use popular SM or trawl the sewers of chans any longer, so is it there? Is that representative of a wider society? Do people who hold the extreme view that "speech h…

It sounds like you have an opinion but would rather sea lion. In the event that you are being genuine, there have been multitudes of instances.

- Post jan 6 insurrection has left Republicans trying to justify their seditious invasion of the U.S. capital as protests protected by speech: https://knightfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/KF_F...

- The "Cancel culture" pejorative has created a double standard where a certain political party cries foul for being censored on private platforms (for violating TOS) and push for government regulation of said platforms to protect their political opinions. They are even trying to redefine private websites as the public square to do it.

- Sacha Baron Cohen also sums it up nicely in his speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymaWq5yZIYM

If you really are genuine with your questions and asking for citations, you can google more topics about any of the above.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#223

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:14 AM UTC

cyberlurker wrote: post #216

TulliusCicero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very strange way of phrasing this. Obviously if you're telling random other people to go kill themselves in a game, you should be banned, same as if you start hurting racial slurs or making threats or other asshole behavior.

I think it’s hard to police this stuff. I could see someone sarcastically saying “kys” for forgetting to buy an item or something. Is it often used for bullying? Yea. I’m not going to draw the line at “kys”, but i don’t think it is as obvious as you make it out to be.

I don't think it should be an autoban type of scenario, where if you type it you just get banned instantly. It should be a situation where you can report it, and then an employee can see what the context is, if there's proper logging in the game.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#224

Post by makeitdouble » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:42 AM UTC

shitlord wrote: post #161

makeitdouble wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We wouldn’t expect well known kids at school to accept random verbal abuse all day every day, and ask them to just move school if they get tired of it. Why should it be different online ?

The difference is that you can always close the game or play a different game. I don't see why the government needs to get involved when individual companies already have a financial incentive to ban toxic players.

> financial incentive to ban toxic players.

Aren't major SNS platforms financially succeeding by promoting toxic users that drive engagement numbers through the roof ?

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#225

Post by alephnan » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:45 AM UTC

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #162

It's crazy to me reading all these comments applying the American cultural, historical and legal context to discuss a Japanese law about bullying. You can't translate your usual talking points about American politics 1:1 to another country.

This crowd has a cartoonish conception of Japan in particular.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#226

Post by bamboozled » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:29 AM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #172

zaik wrote: post #103

If I read this correctly, no new law has been passed. They made punishment harsher for insults (侮辱罪) an existing crime which is not specific to cyberbullying.

Correct. They didn't even increase a minimum punishment, they just expanded the possible punishments, so you could still get the old, light, punishment. Also of note, these changes will be reviewed after three years to see if they are too harsh.

What is the point of that though ? They’re either too harsh or not? How do you find out in three years ?

There is also an election in three years. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s not a coincidence?

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#227

Post by causality0 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:34 AM UTC

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #57

causality0 wrote: post #10

Results this are why I vigorously defend even the outer fringes of free speech. "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Is there any practical evidence of this slippery slope? Here in Canada hate speech, defamation, and obscenity have been illegal for a while. The idea is that you have freedom of expression, but it only extends as far as it doesn't infringe on another person's entitlement to a life free from discrimination & harassment. I don't feel like this has been a slippery slope for us, only a different place to draw the lines b…

But I'd be curious if there's any practical examples of this happening in other countries

Certainly. For example, in Germany it is illegal to curse at the police. There is a rather well-known video where police confront a man at his door but can't do anything more until he calls them cunts, at which point they turn around, force their way in, and arrest him.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#228

Post by causality0 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:37 AM UTC

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #120

rlv-dan wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have freedom of expression, but it only extends as far as it doesn't infringe on another person's entitlement to a life free from discrimination & harassment How do you determine this? If I define a common word to be offensive towards me, how would you argue against it if I really feel that way? Where do you draw the line?

The criminal code describes specific protected categories & speech and, if it becomes unclear, the courts determines the specific line in individual cases. In some cases it goes to the supreme court to set a general standard.

No post body was provided.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#229

Post by causality0 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:39 AM UTC

mewse-hn wrote: post #78

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any practical evidence of this slippery slope? Here in Canada hate speech, defamation, and obscenity have been illegal for a while. The idea is that you have freedom of expression, but it only extends as far as it doesn't infringe on another person's entitlement to a life free from discrimination & harassment. I don't feel like this has been a slippery slope for us, only a different place to draw the lines b…

Another Canadian here. Saw a video of an American pastor last week saying homosexuals should be lined up against the wall and shot. Great people they are protecting down there.

If you don't believe in freedom of speech for people you despise you don't believe in it at all.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#230

Post by InefficientRed » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 3:05 AM UTC

yuuu wrote: post #214

InefficientRed wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain pockets of the gaming community are crime-adjacent with respect to online harassment (not the type this law describes; actual, clearly illegal and clearly not constitutionally protected harassment). You see similar things in other crime-adjacent communities. E.g., I've known many taggers who support stiffer penalties for people who tag in national parks, deface uncontroversial monuments, etc but are afraid th…

I honestly do not understand how people can be so myopic that they cannot, at all, anticipate the second-order effects that will come from legislation they "like" because it bans things they "don't like."

I'm not sure how this is responsive to the normalization of deviance.

Criminal harassment isn't a "don't like" thing. It's just a misdemeanor crime. Harassment people isn't "just free speech" even if it is speech. Graffiti isn't "just art" even if it's art. There has never been a time in the USA where you could systematically harass someone without committing a crime.