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Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

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Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#141
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Youth with ADD/ADHD engaged in screen time with an average of 149.1 min/weekday and 59% had a TV in their bedroom. Adjusting for child and family characteristics, having a TV in the bedroom was associated with 25 minute higher daily screen time (95% CI: 12.8–37.4 min/day). A bedroom TV was associated with 32% higher odds of engaging in screen time for over 2 h/day (OR = 1.3; 95% CI: 1.0–1.7). This does not imply ca…

> Medicated or not. They just have better support and lifestyle habits that minimize how much it might impact them. If a disease can be resolved through changes in lifestyle is it a disease needing medication? I think that is kind of the point, is it not? We can give the kids anti-depressants for being depressed or we can help them change their lifestyles. We can give the kids ADHD drugs or we can change their lifest…

They're not mutually exclusive, and ideally you mix and match. Being on medication is a bit too polarizing, as there are people who vilify it, or otherwise shame people who need to be on life-long or long-term medication, but there is also a problem with over- or mis-prescribing.

I don't really have much to do with the prescribing part of it (besides my personal medication decisions, and doing my part to not ignore the problem), so I'll leave that to my friends in the medical industry. Though especially having held some uninformed opinions on people who need medication earlier in life, I think it's important to not make people question whether they should take life-changing medication because of stigma or social pressure.

I will say my personal experiences have exposed me to people who need medication but have trouble accepting it a lot more than the latter, so I don't want to pretend my experience is universal.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#142
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People who are diagnosed with ADHD at a younger age likely have parents who just don't want / know how to deal with issues." Once you have a child with ADHD, or if you are someone with ADHD, you will understand just how wrong you are. Until then, enjoy your bliss.

I formed this opinion from knowing many and seeing the way they are being / were raised. There's quite a bit of evidence to support this btw (outside of my observations). https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1471-2431-12-50 > Approximately 10% of the sample was classified as having ADHD. We found depression, anxiety, healthcare coverage, and male sex of child to have increased odds of being diagnosed with ADHD.…

None of those studies establish a causal relationship. Correlation is not causation. Even the first study says "Longer time spent in cognitively stimulating activities (>1 hours per day) was associated with lower scores of both ADHD symptoms (0.96, 0.94–0.98) and behavior problems (0.89, 0.83–0.97). Time spent watching TV and engaging in physical activity were not associated with either outcomes."

I have a child with ADHD (age 9) and a child without (age 6). They are both highly intelligent, but compared to each other:

* My ADHD child is significantly more attracted to screens, video games, and quick stimulation in general. If he doesn't have a screen, he's much more likely to engage in simple, lower-focus activities like simply spinning and running in circles or just hitting things against each other. When given the choice, he will always choose screen stimulation.

* My non-ADHD child is more likely to play with clay and building materials, read, write, and draw. He likes TV and video games, but will very often decide to do other, lower-stimulation activities without being prompted. When outside, he explores and examines things, and will play more structured, imaginative games with rules.

* My ADHD child sleeps much less than the non-ADHD child. He has trouble falling asleep, and wakes up very early every morning on his own. It is impossible to "give them plenty of sleep" when they literally can not sleep.

* My ADHD child exercises much more than the non-ADHD child. He is more interested in going outside in general.

* My ADHD child does not like studying and can not focus on learning things. He learns less, he learns slower, he is disruptive in class. He acts more immaturely even when we take much time teaching him to behave like an adult. He is often depressed because he feels like there's something wrong with him because he has a significantly harder time just having fun doing things that other kids his age do. He feels depressed because he wants to learn things that he simply can not make himself sit long enough to focus on. He feels depressed because he knows he is being immature and disruptive and feels like he literally can not control it.

Given the same opportunities and treatment, my ADHD child has more screen time, more time exercising, less time sleeping, learns less, is less mature, and is more depressed. He is on medication now, but I felt the way you do for years, and it set him back severely in school and life, including his friendships and relationships with family. On medication, he is doing much better in every single respect, but he still struggles, and the medications become less effective over time (we're still trying to find something that works better long-term).

I'm going to be frank here. You are taking studies that show correlation, ignorantly assuming causation, and making judgements and giving advice about an area that you clearly do not have any personal connection to. ADHD may be overdiagnosed, it may have been underdiagnosed in the past (note that ADHD is strongly correlated with self-medication and addiction, which has always existed), but it's not something that you can really easily cause or prevent, and dealing with ADHD in a child is stressful and challenging for both the parent and the child. Assuming neglect among parents of children with ADHD is absolutely uncalled for, and contrary to my experience, where parents of children with ADHD are absolutely run ragged from years of trying to fight to keep their kids healthy, sane, and educated.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#143
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more horrifying to me that HN has turned into a kind of place where people will confidently assert their judgment something they have no knowledge about. My son has ADHD. There are other ADHD cases in the family, so we knew that could be the case with him, but we waited until he was in middle school to even try to check, because we didn't want him to "depend on drugs", as the trope goes. We got the diagnosis fro…

Two things can be true at the same time. Some kids truly do have a disorder that benefits from medication. Some kids are prescribed medication they don't need simply so they are able to do something that no child should reasonable be expect to do: sit in a chair and listen to people talk at them for 8+ hours a day. One truth does not preclude the other.

> One truth does not preclude the other.

Do you have any evidence to support that children are prescribed medication to sit in a chair when they don't have ADHD at a high enough clip to warrant the appearance of being concerned about it at equal weight to actually getting those with ADHD help? Comments like this only further stigmatize getting those with ADHD the help they need, so before you make them you'd better be damn sure it's worth it or else you're taking part in stigmatizing parents who get children the help they deserve.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#144
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind me asking, why are you closeted about your ADHD? I am 30 and was recently diagnosed and it's one of the most liberating things that has ever happened to me.

Different places treat ADHD differently. In some countries if you are diagnosed with it you won’t be able to, for example, drive a car.

Interesting. I was not aware of that. Good to know, thanks.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#145
post #91

This doesn't surprise me. I've been prescribed Ritalin at times both as a child and an adult in small doses. It is a remarkable strong medication, and operates much like I imagine recreational drugs operate - there's a definite strong high, and an equally brutal comedown afterword. I would be extremely cautious about prescribing this to anyone, especially children unless nearly every other kind of intervention has be…

Methylphenidate and cocaine are very very similar, but the nuance is different. It' like a bank account at -1¢ or +1¢, very similar accounts, how will they differ as time passes?

In particular because cocaine is addictive whereas methylphenidate is not. Cocaine is euphoric while methylphenidate is much less, cocaine is arrogant while methylphenidate is just in-the-zone, just makes you want to work. Makes drudgery feel like a video game.

There is also such a thing as an affine cocaine user, like Maradona, Iceberg Slim, and Sherlock Holmes (whose cocaine use was based on a real guy--a fucking freakish detective whose privacy Arthur Conan Doyle protected). These guys actually have an essentially healthy relationship with the drug, and yeah it's rare but it exists and they should be allowed to have it. Or narcoleptics, they're not going to get heart problems, let them.

Or what? If Sherlock Holmes was on your child's abduction case, would you tell him no cocaine injections for the deduction trances? Nah man, you'd tell him go for it. That's legal cocaine. And the best detective of all time! In that case, would you still argue legal cocaine is bad for your child?

Honestly I'm like, methylphenidate can be taken like in high school, for athletic competitions, tests, and writing essays...that's when I would have taken that or similar. Later on parties, that's medically acceptable, and is a medically-accepted partly-recreational use for a part of the supply, which is mostly intended for work.

So one thing, daily methylphenidate reduces adult height about as much as artistic gymnastics, like two inches. Apart from that, like something milder is better...like coffee with whey protein, that's worth 5 milligrams of methylphenidate. There's vyvanse, that's a good one for kids. There's adderall, too strong I'd say, but typically there's adderall deficits and ritalin deficits, never heard of someone being helped by both.

I would say I would have wanted the choice for myself as a kid.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#146
post #95
post #91

This doesn't surprise me. I've been prescribed Ritalin at times both as a child and an adult in small doses. It is a remarkable strong medication, and operates much like I imagine recreational drugs operate - there's a definite strong high, and an equally brutal comedown afterword. I would be extremely cautious about prescribing this to anyone, especially children unless nearly every other kind of intervention has be…

If you’re getting a high from it, your dose is too high. If there is a “brutal” come down, your dose is too high. What do you consider a “small” dose?

Yeah instead take half the dose with three- or four-hour intervals.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#147
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe the responder had the gall to take personal attacks personally. Have they tried going outside more? If they didn't sit on their butt all day they might not be inclined to take my directed insults personally.

I know these sorts of comments are more welcome on Reddit than HN, but I chuckled and thanks for that.

I realize that posting that comment wasn't too helpful on my part, but people being dismissive of ADHD is probably the quickest way to get a rise out of me.

Sorry for being snarky. Not sorry for calling out destructive, unscientific bullshit.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#148
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, do you are assuming that everyone reacts to drugs in the same way? I was taking 1/5th to 1/10th of a 'normal' dose. Secondly, if you do a few minutes of research online you will find that both issues (the high, and the comedown) is not at all an uncommon complaint. Ritalin is a CNS stimulant. With respect, you are being a bit too condescending relative to the amount of knowledge of the issue you posses.

What do you consider to be a “normal” dose? I’ve heard of people using 60+ mg of Ritalin and thinking that’s normal. Ritalin is a powerful stimulant at 5 or 10mg. You can get lower doses or different formulations - e.g. 5 or 10mg at extended release to last through the day. Extended release is usually preferred by doctors in part because you avoid the highs and lows. Regardless of what “normal” practice is, if you ar…

>if you can’t get therapeutic effects at a dose low enough to avoid a “brutal” comedown, you should be looking for alternatives.

Agreed, this is why I no longer use it to treat my condition. The point I am making is that parents need to be aware of these potential side effects, because a child isn't necessarily in a position to articulate the fact that they are experiencing adverse effects like this. The medication is a CNS stimulant first and foremost. These effects aren't exactly rare.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#149
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things can be true at the same time. Some kids truly do have a disorder that benefits from medication. Some kids are prescribed medication they don't need simply so they are able to do something that no child should reasonable be expect to do: sit in a chair and listen to people talk at them for 8+ hours a day. One truth does not preclude the other.

That's true. And it's also true that ADHD is overdiagnosed and overtreated, and the rate is non-negligible. That is a problem that both the public and the medical community are aware of. I agree with maintaining awareness of that, but I strongly disagree with going to the extremes and stigmatizing ADHD medication and everyone involved. Look at the comment I objected to. Does it read like a rational, polite way to mai…

I wrote that it is horrifying so many children are drugged to be more complacent in school. I saw you objecting to that and assumed I'd need to come back and support the idea that ADHD is over diagnosed and over medicated (e.g. the diagnoses have about doubled in the past couple decades in the US and are substantially higher than in European countries and US pharmaceuticals have a history of being over prescribed). Yet now I find that you are already aware ADHD is overdiagnosed and overtreated - so what exactly are you objecting to in my original comment? You don't think it's horrifying that parents, teachers, and doctors are basically conspiring to drug kids to keep them from acting up in schools?

School is a pretty boring and restrictive place. Children are notoriously poor at dealing with boring things and young boys in particular are particularly prone to the kind of misbehavior that will get them in trouble and drugged.

Re: Association between ADHD medication and depression: A 10-year follow-up

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't assuming it about you specifically. It's just a common part of the process, with a common solution. It's likely a very valid question. If you're one of the few for whom it didn't work out, cool. But with equal respect, your anecdotal experience is not sufficient to call it "legal cocaine". Neither is it sufficient to make generilizations about how medical care of ADHD should be approached.

1. Ritalin is a schedule V medication precisely because of the reasons I mentioned. 2. Five minutes of research online shows that my experience is not uncommon. Hell, reading the warning label from the pharmaceutical manufacturer is sufficient to make my point. 3. I am very pro-medication when it comes to treating ADHD, but I also believe many people are not sufficiently educated on the potential consequences of thes…

Ritalin still isn't "cocaine", despite your negative experience with it, and you're going to do more harm to those who would benefit from it by spreading around FUD.

Part of the process of treating ADHD is finding the right medication, and Ritalin works for most, and if it's working as intended, does not produce the "high" feeling that you got. If you're getting high off of it, it's not the drug for you, or you're on the wrong dose.

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