Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#111

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #68

san_dimitri wrote: post #55

I am surprised how much less discussion takes place about cyberbullying and the deaths caused by it. I agree with freedom of speech but if it violates someones right to exist then shouldn't the culprits be punished? If not punished atleast have a legal process to discuss/debate it in the court of law? Thoughts?

People dying is a small price to pay for free speech. Of course, if everyone died and the last person was able to speak freely, it would be worth it. Everything else is trading safety for liberty. Slippery slopes of free speech crackdowns inevitably lead to loss of liberty. Leave if you don't like it. Absolutism in free speech is the only justifiable position. Welcome to debate.

That's probably the most absolutist statement of the concept I've ever seen; my respect for posting it plainly.

In this form, it's easy to show the flaw in this line of thought, because it concludes with literal extermination of the species ("the last person" implies no further people). And if a right leads to extermination of the species, what good was that right in the first place?

All rights have a balance point. Most hinge on where the rights of others begin. The freedom of speech (in the form of criticism of power) has massive value to the formation and maintenance of a free society, which is why some nations protect it so zealously. But even those nations have recognized its constraint in various contexts.

The position described here is a fringe position and should remain one to maximize the value of free speech.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#112

Post by Manuel_D » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

Laws like this sound well-intentioned enough but are rampant for abuse and unequal application. If someone is outraged at some controversial policy or statement, how does that play out? Especially when the people in question are public figures:

> professional wrestler Hana Kimura died in 2020 at age 22 following cyberbullying on social media over her remarks on a reality romance show that she had been part of.

Imagine if someone was locked up for a year because they said mean things about Tucker Carlson. This makes more sense if it's narrowly defined to encompass people without public presence, but it seems to include public figures as well.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#113

Post by tangjurine » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #68

san_dimitri wrote: post #55

I am surprised how much less discussion takes place about cyberbullying and the deaths caused by it. I agree with freedom of speech but if it violates someones right to exist then shouldn't the culprits be punished? If not punished atleast have a legal process to discuss/debate it in the court of law? Thoughts?

People dying is a small price to pay for free speech. Of course, if everyone died and the last person was able to speak freely, it would be worth it. Everything else is trading safety for liberty. Slippery slopes of free speech crackdowns inevitably lead to loss of liberty. Leave if you don't like it. Absolutism in free speech is the only justifiable position. Welcome to debate.

>If everyone died and the last person was able to speak freely, it would be worth it.

?

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#114

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

Minor49er wrote: post #71

danuker wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not too certain. But here are some examples (NSFW). https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbols/search Looks like they involve discrimination (on race or religion or such). But Japan's new law is more general.

What makes the ADL an authority on hate speech?

[deleted]

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#115

Post by aluminum96 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #68

san_dimitri wrote: post #55

I am surprised how much less discussion takes place about cyberbullying and the deaths caused by it. I agree with freedom of speech but if it violates someones right to exist then shouldn't the culprits be punished? If not punished atleast have a legal process to discuss/debate it in the court of law? Thoughts?

People dying is a small price to pay for free speech. Of course, if everyone died and the last person was able to speak freely, it would be worth it. Everything else is trading safety for liberty. Slippery slopes of free speech crackdowns inevitably lead to loss of liberty. Leave if you don't like it. Absolutism in free speech is the only justifiable position. Welcome to debate.

> People dying is a small price to pay for free speech.

Well, that depends on the amount of dying and the kind of speech.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#116

Post by ch4s3 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

lin83 wrote: post #34

Jasper_ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These rules typically get applied in ways that advantage the already privileged. e.g. privileged people can say mean stuff online to those under them, but those without such power will go to jail for trying to expose the crimes or bad behaviors of those they work for. Basically, Masayoshi Son won't ever go to jail (he's too important to go to jail), but someone trying to expose his financial crimes will.

> Insult charges apply when an individual insults another in public to damage their social reputation. This is a gift to the rich and powerful to punish and gag whistleblowers and activists.

That's how defamation/libel law has functioned in the UK.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#117

Post by lucumo » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #68

san_dimitri wrote: post #55

I am surprised how much less discussion takes place about cyberbullying and the deaths caused by it. I agree with freedom of speech but if it violates someones right to exist then shouldn't the culprits be punished? If not punished atleast have a legal process to discuss/debate it in the court of law? Thoughts?

People dying is a small price to pay for free speech. Of course, if everyone died and the last person was able to speak freely, it would be worth it. Everything else is trading safety for liberty. Slippery slopes of free speech crackdowns inevitably lead to loss of liberty. Leave if you don't like it. Absolutism in free speech is the only justifiable position. Welcome to debate.

[flagged]

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#118

Post by comrh » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #106

san_dimitri wrote: post #55

I am surprised how much less discussion takes place about cyberbullying and the deaths caused by it. I agree with freedom of speech but if it violates someones right to exist then shouldn't the culprits be punished? If not punished atleast have a legal process to discuss/debate it in the court of law? Thoughts?

The problem with what you're saying is that incivility does not directly cause death. I could not actually kill you by writing a lot of really clever insults, not even if they were worthy of Guybrush Threepwood. The deaths "caused" by insults are in fact mediated through rare mental illnesses, and that calls in to question the issue of responsibility. If you bumped into me on the sidewalk and, because a rare illness…

That really undersells how horrible targeted harassment of a person and everyone that person knows can be.

> The degree to which the effect of the cause is typical matters a lot in designing legislation or making fair decisions that apply equally to everyone.

I think this was added after I replied. I would certainly agree this legislation is overly broad and probably not helpful. At first I thought you were arguing cyberbullying could only be a matter of life and death if you had a "mental disorder".

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#119

Post by pvg » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

xkbarkar wrote: post #66

ImPleadThe5th wrote: post #7

Quoted post unavailable.

Dont get why you are being downvoted. I think this is where we are heading.

Because it's bombastic trope snarkery, a form that's not a fit for this forum, independent of its content or message. It's in the guidelines linked at the bottom and years of moderator commentary.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#120

Post by chrisfosterelli » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

rlv-dan wrote: post #85

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any practical evidence of this slippery slope? Here in Canada hate speech, defamation, and obscenity have been illegal for a while. The idea is that you have freedom of expression, but it only extends as far as it doesn't infringe on another person's entitlement to a life free from discrimination & harassment. I don't feel like this has been a slippery slope for us, only a different place to draw the lines b…

> you have freedom of expression, but it only extends as far as it doesn't infringe on another person's entitlement to a life free from discrimination & harassment How do you determine this? If I define a common word to be offensive towards me, how would you argue against it if I really feel that way? Where do you draw the line?

The criminal code describes specific protected categories & speech and, if it becomes unclear, the courts determines the specific line in individual cases. In some cases it goes to the supreme court to set a general standard.