Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#611

Post by orwin » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:37 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #490

orwin wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they tried to change how institutions work to add stuff like random nominations, split/defund the police, self determination for smaller bodies (decentralization towards cities basically)? Or did they try to subvert capitalism by forcing half+1 workers representative on every company boards? There is not a lot of far left ideas left to implement. Societally, there is basically nothing left since women are allowed…

I think 'far left' implies terrorism or other armed insurrection or revolution? The things you're talking about are acting peacefully within the existing establishment. That's not 'far left'.

You are right, most people on the far left (i'd say two third of them, maybe it changed in the last ten years) would say that participating in elections is supporting the institutions and the dominant class.

But right now radical left == far left for most. Worse, right now in France, a lot of people really think the reformist left is the far left, and the rest believe they are radicals. Saner, but still wrong. This is mindblowing, but i am not a professional historian or political scientist so it doesn't really matter to me, i won't loose any sleep. It just says a lot about how low our political culture fell. They aren't even anticapitalists nor they push for worker ownership. And i've read today that the overton window was pushed to the left?

One thing still that can explain this: it seems that the 19th century history lessons were erased from our western memories. And even the years between WW1 and WW2 are not that clear for western europeans.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#612

Post by eyko » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

MagnumOpus wrote: post #600

eyko wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> new faces with far right credentials I'm not sure what your definition of far right is but that statement is quite far from the truth.

That statement is very much the truth. I don't know whether you follow politics outside the UK, or whether you remember the UK from 10 years ago? In both cases the policies of the current government -- from hard Brexit to unilaterally renouncing the GFA to interning asylum seekers in Rwanda to deporting pension-aged Windrush people to the Caribbean to the "hostile environment" for legal immigrants and foreign student…

To be fair, I've only lived in the UK for just over a decade. That being said, I do remember BNP and the EDL. Whilst there's an intersection between EDL/BNP and present-day Brexit (i.e. Conservative party) supporters, I wouldn't say the government represents the views held by the former. In fact, groups like the BNP advocated for compulsory deportation of non-whites (during Tyndall) and later pivoted to a modern version of politely asking us to leave[1]. Whilst Windrush was comparable, I don't think it is to the scale of what a BNP majority would've ever looked like. Regarding the GFA, I'm obviously lacking context and perspective, but I see it more as an oversight and bad leadership than an intentional break away from it, but with the current government I never know what to think.

1. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/20/bnp-members... "...firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home".

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#613

Post by MagnumOpus » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:50 PM UTC

orwin wrote: post #481

chrisseaton wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> explicitly socialist candidates elected to parliament I think it’s pretty unreasonable to call these people ‘far left’. I don’t think they’re planning to take up arms like the IRA for example.

Did they tried to change how institutions work to add stuff like random nominations, split/defund the police, self determination for smaller bodies (decentralization towards cities basically)? Or did they try to subvert capitalism by forcing half+1 workers representative on every company boards? There is not a lot of far left ideas left to implement. Societally, there is basically nothing left since women are allowed…

> try to subvert capitalism by forcing half+1 workers representative on every company boards

As an economist, this is far from far left -- it's a fairly middle-of-the-road policy that is used in market economies that are more stable successful than the UK's, e.g. Germany. (And at 33% representation, it is the default across western Europe, where you would be laughed at if you tried to characterise them as far-left...)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#614

Post by binbag » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

I posted this and went out for the day, so I'm a bit late now to comment but here goes.

I'm Scottish and I voted no the first time round. My arguement was always "I've more in common with people from Manchester, Liverpool or London than I do with Highlanders and 'nationalists'" (I'm in Glasgow, which is the third largest UK city and the largest in Scotland). But then we were taken out of the EU and since then the UK has become (been unmasked as?) very right wing, led by a deeply unpleasant right wing of the nominally centre-right Tory party. Centre-left politics (primarily social but also economic) have been ruined, as a result of various factors at play in the last 5 years or so. My kinship with other UK cities is no longer reason enough to support the union.

I manage a company registered in Scotland and it is now as difficult for us to do business with France or Spain as with India or Canada. Unlike those business owners who like the idea of a captive UK market, I want our company to compete and export globally, and we have been deprived of simple access to the world's largest trading bloc.

As for the prospect of an independent Scotland joining the EU, I see no hurdles to that. Now that the UK has left the EU, it is absolutely in the EU's interest to allow Scotland, having left the EU unwillingly, to rejoin.

For these reasons I'm inclined to vote yes if a second referendum is held, but I'm not 100% sure and could change my mind depending on the economic and social plans put forward.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#615

Post by enriquto » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #446

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

I can't help thinking there is a certain tension between wanting to be an independent country, and then also wanting to join the EU and give up your currency. Most of the new powers you would gain under independence would be given away again.

> there is a certain tension between wanting to be an independent country, and then also wanting to join the EU

Not necessarily. For example, regarding official languages, there's no way that Gaelic would be an official EU language if Ireland was not directly part of the EU.

And if Catalonia gained its independence, then Catalan would likely become an officially recognized language in the EU (which it isn't, due to spanish interference). Actually, this is one of the most important motivations for many pro-indepencence supporters in Catalonia (of which nearly all of them are pro-EU).

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#616

Post by MagnumOpus » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:02 PM UTC

zwirbl wrote: post #596

inglor_cz wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is, for me, a feature, not a bug. Consent is a great thing. Many people of smaller nations like Czechs, that regained sovereignty after a long period of subjugation to various powers, do not really want to give it up again so that the French-German axis may have their job easier.

Why did they join the EU in the first place then? Was it for the money and having some entity to blame for domestic policy failures? The last point is what politicians here in Austria like to do

For the money, and to get rid of their Roma travelers (because those now legally migrate to west.)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#617

Post by Emma_Goldman » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:02 PM UTC

smcl wrote: post #608

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Whoever England votes for, Scotland gets. We could've sent 59 Scottish Labour MPs to Westminster in each of the last three elections and it wouldn't have changed a thing, because England wanted a Conservative government. In 2017, if Scotland didn't elect 13 Conservatives to Westminster then Theresa May would not have been able to form a government with the DUP. If it also didn't elect 4 Liberal Democrats then Theres…

But that's contradicting the original point you were making about Scotland pulling the UK left isn't it? It sounds like you're saying "Scotland matters ... sometimes. Look, 20% of you helped elect Theresa May!" That's not what we were talking about, which is that Scotland consistently votes to the left. And there is no way we can get a left-wing government, because England votes to the right. And it kind of doesn't m…

I am going to keep my comments to a minimum because I think this is becoming an unproductive exchange.

> But that's contradicting the original point

You have said there's a contradiction, but have not said what it is. I have no idea what you think it is.

> Scotland consistently votes to the left. And there is no way we can get a left-wing government, because England votes to the right.

It is obviously possible for the UK to elect a left-wing government. I don't know why you think otherwise.

> This isn't a randomly selected bloc

My point is that there is no reason to expect a bloc of 59 constituencies to consistently decide the outcome of general elections. That is not in and of itself necessarily a problem. You need further, independent arguments to show why it is a problem for Scotland.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#618

Post by walkhour » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

Taywee wrote: post #594

walkhour wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The referendum was justified as once in a generation, and this phrase was repeated ad nauseam, and this deal was partly why the referendum happened. It wasn't said "once in a generation unless there's a big change", big changes happen in countries all the time, so by demanding a referendum now the rules are being changed. The next generation will have a chance to vote on this, and if they think independence from the…

If a sizable number of people specifically voted against independence out of desire to remain in the EU, then their votes were undermined. Voting is supposed to represent the will of the people, and I don't think it's fair to treat it like a gamble that this generation just lost because whoops, England changed their circumstances and people said "once in a generation" a bunch of times. Did the voters agree to this "o…

> Voting is supposed to represent the will of the people

The will of the people is always discovered within some rules, otherwise we could vote for many more things, instead of every four years. The rule in this case was to vote now, and wait decades for the next chance.

> England changed their circumstances and people said "once in a generation" a bunch of times

Circumstances always change, and they were bound to change within a generation, it was naive to think they wouldn't. Voting every decade with a 40% chance of independence happening means independence will happen just when the moods swing that way.

Let me ask you, were circumstances going to change if Scotland was independent, should the new Scottish government check for the will of the people on whether they should reunite with the UK? How often should they do this? Of course this hasn't even crossed the mind of any Scottish politician and will never happen.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#619

Post by mvc » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:14 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #609

mvc wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more worried about what happens when the oil runs out. Apparently it's the only thing of any value in Scotland and in 30 years, we're supposed to be net-zero. What happens when Scotland's geographical resources cease to be of any use to wealthy English people?

Without independence, same as now. Given that even including north sea revenue Scotland is still subsidised by London There's tons of future stuff that could be invested in Scotland -- offshore wind and tidal and pumped hydro for example. That investment isn't there because the UK (and the EU for that matter) is market led and the market wants short term results over long term investment.

> Without independence, same as now. Given that even including north sea revenue Scotland is still subsidised by London

Forgive me if I've misinterpreted, but you seem to think that's an argument for staying in the UK but I see it as an argument for getting out. It's a crutch, and Scotland needs to figure out how to stand on it's own power. Why should rUK subsidise indefinitely? What if suddenly it decides to stop? And why shoudn't it?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#620

Post by frosted-flakes » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

carlmr wrote: post #489

dagw wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain and France aren't super keen on encouraging the general idea that regions of a country can easily split off and become independent EU member countries.

But Scotland is already a country.

A country is a sovereign nation. Scotland is a nation, but it does not have full sovereignty and is not recognized as a sovereign nation by any other sovereign nations (to my knowledge), the same way that Catalan is a nation within the country of Spain.