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Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

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Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#111

Post by Zak »

cookiecaper wrote: post #88
Zak wrote: post #26

Ubuntu used to be Debian that just worked. Now it's trying to be something more, but it seems to have lost the "just works" part. When I tried 11.10, I had problems with several of the desktop environments crashing or being very visibly broken. I had poor graphics performance. I had no suspend/resume. All of these things worked on the same computer a year ago. I think Ubuntu may be trying to move too fast. Moving fas…

The problem is that Ubuntu is not focusing on the fundamentals and they're not putting enough money into testing. I know well and good that Ubuntu was conceived because Shuttleworth felt that Linux was ready for the big time and that Red Hat etc had too much penchant to devote resources into low-level bickering that ultimately had relatively little effect on your average end user instead of focusing on improving user…

The problem is that Ubuntu is not focusing on the fundamentals and they're not putting enough money into testing.

I think you made my point more succinctly than I did.

I think the UX was just fine in last year's Ubuntu. You could argue about whether Gnome 2.x was as slick as Windows 7 or OS X (I think it was at least better than Windows), but I don't think there's much doubt the system was usable by non-geeks. The first thing to break for me was suspend/resume, with one of 10.10's kernel updates. I reverted to an older kernel and hoped 11.04 would fix the problem. It didn't, and it precluded running the older, working kernel. Performance also got worse, and I can't think of any noteworthy improvements as I didn't consider Unity ready for prime time.

So then 11.10 came out. Reviews said Unity was great now and everything ran smoothly, so I pulled the trigger on the upgrade. Unity did, in fact mostly work, though it was slow and glitchy. Oh well, back to Gnome Classic. Of course, it's Gnome 3 now and I can't even move the clock. That won't do, but I've heard the new Gnome 3 gnome-shell is awesome, and I have a video card that can handle it. It loads, slowly, but UI components sometimes vanish when I try to interact with them. Eventually, X crashes. Oh well, that gives me an opportunity to see what progress KDE 4 has made. I can report that the error messages for Plasma crashing look like they've had some attention from a designer since the last time I saw them. Good work.

I'm running Linux Mint Debian Edition with Xfce now. Still no suspend/resume, but everything else works. The Linux desktop experience is almost back to where it was two years ago. Yay leadership!

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#112

Post by eropple »

vacri wrote: post #109
eropple wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Default browser can't fullscreen/kiosk mode? Resize from only one corner, not any border? Neither is true in 10.7. Heavy reliance on keystrokes with low discoverability? For the most part, keystrokes follow similar patterns from application to application. There are inconsistencies (some applications use ctrl-tab to switch tabs, some use ctrl-pgup/pgdn) but for the most part it's self-consistent. (There are some nice…

I haven't used 10.7, but still, that those things were ommitted for so long is straight-out bizarre.

True. I didn't buy a Mac until 10.7, myself. I don't think I'm going back though.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#113

Post by regularfry »

sofuture wrote: post #5

I think Ubuntu should zag where Apple zags. I think they're doing it right. They're in a unique position to take an Apple-like path. I, for one, applaud what they're doing, as much as it terrifies all the half-power-users (I don't mean that as a slight, I do think it's a little silly to get upset about Ubuntu's default WM and claim to 'understand UNIX').

It's perfectly possible to get upset about Unity and understand Unix at the same time. With all the effort going into Unity, there's less effort available to QA the other options.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#114

Post by hetman »

technomancy wrote: post #101
PerryCox wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't agree more. Lots of people are panicking about Unity because it's not as configurable as Gnome use to be, but they forget that we're in a transition period. Unity is brand spanking new, and I'm sure it'll have more configuration options in the future.

That might be a good point if it weren't already so simple to build user interfaces that are simultaneously obvious to newbies while at the same time being ridiculously extensible. You just build it in a language that exposes a repl. Mozilla doesn't even do a particularly good job at this (given how they bury the replness), and it's still fostered a plugin ecosystem that has kept it competitive despite competitors ea…

It's Linux. You should build one. It's "easy" after all...

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#115

Post by hetman »

Zak wrote: post #111
cookiecaper wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Ubuntu is not focusing on the fundamentals and they're not putting enough money into testing. I know well and good that Ubuntu was conceived because Shuttleworth felt that Linux was ready for the big time and that Red Hat etc had too much penchant to devote resources into low-level bickering that ultimately had relatively little effect on your average end user instead of focusing on improving user…

The problem is that Ubuntu is not focusing on the fundamentals and they're not putting enough money into testing. I think you made my point more succinctly than I did. I think the UX was just fine in last year's Ubuntu. You could argue about whether Gnome 2.x was as slick as Windows 7 or OS X (I think it was at least better than Windows), but I don't think there's much doubt the system was usable by non-geeks. The fi…

So the good news is you can move the clock in Gnome 3 Classic. All you have to do is hold Alt to right click on the widget and move. I mean... that's completely obvious right?

This has to be one of the worst UI decisions I've ever encountered...

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#116

Post by magnethy »

I haven't used Linux as a primary desktop OS for almost 7 years, so I figured I'd give it a go - so I got a ThinkPad W520 running Ubuntu 11.10 for work (software development.) Verdict so far? Next time I'm going for a Mac again.

Why?

* X doesn't automatically set up my nvidia graphics card. Sure, I can manually install the driver and set up Xorg.conf, but I just don't want to do that. Luckily there's also an integrated Intel graphics card.¨

* VGA port does not work (no presentations using the projector for me) because of previous point.

* The wireless keeps freezing. At least 10 times a day I have to (using the physical switch on the side of the laptop) turn off the wireless card and turn it on again. Wow. This also is something I'm sure can be fixed by jumbling around with drivers, but again - I just don't want to do that.

* Gnome is horrible. I might be spoiled (lets face it: I AM spoiled) by Apple and their 'everything just works' - which it pretty much does as far as UI goes. Currently I'm running Xfce, which I found to be pleasantly simple. I found Gnome to be buggy and annyoing. Just like in the old days.

Of course there are a lot of positives, like apt being great (my main reason for the switch), and all the available GNU/Linux tools. As others have pointed out, if you use the terminal a lot it's great - but that goes for pretty much any distro.

As far as Ubuntu goes I totally agree with OP. It just doesn't cut it. It's supposed to bring Linux to the people, isn't it? Well, it's not doing a good job of that. I installed Ubuntu to have a system that just works. It doesn't.

If Apple were to bring in a customizable packaging system like apt it'd be a dangerously perfect match. Don't see that happening though.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#117

Post by Peaker »

aufreak3 wrote: post #49
div wrote: post #2

I don't really understand what the author is trying to say. Granted, it's been a while since I used Ubuntu, but as a developer I mainly live in my editor and terminal. Anything I ever wanted is just an apt-get away and is mostly installed in a sensible way. Ubuntu simplifying desktop features and changing defaults to be easier for users like my mom sounds like a great thing to happen to Linux. That stuff is mostly or…

I don't know whether you used "users like my mom" just as a manner of speech, but in my case that is literally true - my mom does use Ubuntu and I quite appreciate the simplification of Ubuntu's interface that's happened over time which has made it possible for my mom to use it.

My dad liked Ubuntu, until the Unity interface.

There are anecdotes either way.

I have my long list of Unity bugs -- I don't think Ubuntu should have put all their chips on that awful implementation of a mediocre interface.

I agree with Eric Raymond that the most worrying thing is not the poor quality of the new Ubuntu release, but that new releases are going backwards. That takes away any hope for improvement.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#118

Post by Peaker »

seabee wrote: post #46
jasonkostempski wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that they should come up with a nice default user friendly setup but they MUST also allow the user to toggle on/off the bits of fluff they want or don't want and they shouldn't have to search Google to figure out how. Also, they have to do fancy animations right, if they're consistently choppy they are no longer a positive feature. My machine runs Windows 7 with all the fluff smoothly, they need to hit that p…

What are your specs like? I've used it on my netbook and a cheap 2006 Dell laptop (no animations) and a dual-core Atom board (animations) and everything had been smooth and quick. I wonder if the problem is driver support.

I was extremely annoyed by a built-in 300-500ms lag inserted to unhide the Unity panel itself. I guess "quick" is a relative term.

I find Unity to be a huge regression in usability.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#119

Post by hetman »

dfc wrote: post #94

If you swap gnome for ubuntu and gnome3 for Unity you have a brand new story. Part of me sort of blames Ubuntu or Ubuntu's influence for the terrible direction of Gnome in general.

Could you expand on that? I was always under the impression their paths just happened to coincide given Canonical didn't have enough sway to make them adopt their own vision.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#120

Post by Peaker »

notatoad wrote: post #16

building a UI for developers is impossible, because every developer wants something totally different. it's also pointless because every developer will customize their environment to make it work for them. you can't please all the people all the time. at some point you have to make a decision that some use cases can't be supported, for the sake of progress. in those cases, i think dropping support for the people who…

I am willing to adjust my workflow, I am not willing to use alpha-quality software.
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