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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#361

Post by iso1631 »

swarnie wrote: post #305
dubeye wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need to be answered at some point, but not necessarily before the referendum. Not saying it's a best way to do it, but it's the most likely way. Brexit for example, was a referendum on a very broad question, the specifics were worked out afterwards. But most likely there will be a transition period, where monetary sovereignty is sacrificed in the short term, to allow central bank to be set up and votes held on v…

> Vote for this! > What is it? > We dont know yet! Doesn't seem like a brilliant idea from where i'm sat. I think the comparison to Brexit will come up a lot, arguing for a similar process with six years of hindsight is... questionable....

Especially given the SNP rightly said that the brexit vote was a con with no substance

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#362

Post by bennysomething »

cstross wrote: post #17
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

Speaking of being misled, we were pretty much promised by the Scottish nationalists that this was a once in a generation choice. Seems we voted wrong the last time so here we are again with all the uncertainty to go with it.

Though right now I want the second referendum as it's probably the best way to end the uncertainty that SNP causing

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#363

Post by smcl »

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #217

Scotland is assuming the EU would want them, the only reason they where in Europe previously is because they where part of the UK and came as a package deal, without the rest of the UK, what does Scotland have? it's silly of them and it's all lead by the SNP who only care about independence at all costs, they ignore literally everything else and try and twist it into an independence issue. SNP is causing Scotland far…

> Scotland is assuming the EU would want them

The EU is currently negotiating with Albania, North Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro to join[0]. Is there something these countries have which an independent Scotland wouldn't?

> with the SNP in power in Scotland, it makes it hard for the UK to have any other government but the tories.

All of Scotland's population could have voted for Labour in the last three elections and it wouldn't have been enough to take Labour over the line. As it turns out they didn't and appear to have moved on to a mixture of SNP, LD and CON. I would invite you to think about precisely why Scotland have abandoned the Labour party in recent years if you want some insight as to that state of affairs.

[0] - technically Turkey as well, but that appears to be stalled

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#364

Post by easytiger »

LeonidasXIV wrote: post #290
veltas wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know why this was downvoted into oblivion. Seems like the point adds to conversation, isn't rude, ignorant, etc. Whether or not you might agree with them.

Because it is a loaded question (check the wording) that also mostly backfired.

It wasn't loaded. It was a genuine question. Did it backfire?

I voted remain. But the brexiteer argument was that the EU is NOT just a trading bloc and has conspiratorial designs on further reduction in national sovereignty. Indeed the EU commission are seeking this right now and have plans to campaign for it.

The remain campaigners and media denied this. They denied even that the EU wanted a military.

The responses to my question indicate that these people support further reductions in national sovereignty to be handed over to EUP and EUC. Tax setting powers and foreign policy powers included.

It literally proves the Brexit supporters correct.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#365

Post by modo_mario »

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #242
WJW wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we don't like a foreign power influencing our policy to their own benefit and our detriment?

Given that the EU has been happy to use America's defense guarantee to subsidize their own defense for a few decades that doesn't exactly ring true. That said, I do understand the need for EU strategic autonomy, especially since the U.S. has been pushing for it since at least the Obama administration but I just found it odd that the U.S. would be lumped in with China. One's influence I'd say is clearly malign, the ot…

Subsidise their own defence? Defence from what? The only time NATO called the arms was when the US invoked article 5.

Additionally this article is from 2007. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimel... We are as of today still helping out in Iraq.

>but I just found it odd that the U.S. would be lumped in with China

When SWIFT was transacting with Iran after our negotiations you forced our hand to fit your own geopolitics. You force decisions about nato procurement to favour you (At times Germany has done so too tbh) and your industry then whine we don't spend enough.

Whenever it comes down to it your allies end up being pushed to act like vassals instead (see Japan being forced to do technology transfers to the US, to import US goods, set monetary policy favouring the US,etc in the 70's/ 80's all to essentially bail it out)

Then there's various examples of government sponsored corporate espionage.

Then there's things like our refugee wave resulting political turmoil stemming from our dealings in the middle east and the arab spring after north african countries and co tried in vain to protect their pegs against the dollar.

All in all I do think there's countless opportunities for mutually beneficial cooperation and alignment between the US and EU but hell don't act like the US is some saint who never acts in it's own interest. At least with China nobody pretends.

Ps. I think the US rethoric regarding china is laden with hypocrisy. That's not to say China is not authoritarian, etc

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#366

Post by rootusrootus »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

> They said it was a once in generation vote.

Or, put another way, you are trying to bind future voters to a promise you agreed to. An arbitrary, ill defined promise at that. What are you telling the younger voters you want to disenfranchise?

Perhaps a supermajority was always the better solution to big questions that should have strong consensus.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#367

Post by iso1631 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #279
iso1631 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the 2014 referendum upto 2021, total oil revenue has been about £5b, that's £700m a year Pre-covid, Scottish public spending was about £15b a year more than tax revenue. I believe the SNP position is that historical revenues should be taken into account for historic debt, but Scotland still has to convince the world to lend it a hell of a lot of money every year to pay for those services, even if they took all…

> but Scotland still has to convince the world to lend it a hell of a lot of money every year to pay for those services, even if they took all the North Sea old revenue (which seems an odd thing for a government with Green backing to be relying on) The revenues from oil are going to be somewhat predictably stable for the next ten to fifteen years, there is simply too much infrastructure in Europe that relies on burni…

They haven't been for the last 10 to 15 years.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/350890/united-kingdom-uk...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#368

Post by noughts »

kmlx wrote: post #227
bestinterest wrote: post #19

I voted no last time round as I was not convinced on the economic side of things. Truthfully I'm still not convinced but I'm finding it hard to justify staying on the sinking ship of the UK. I'd rather fail as a country by our own decisions rather than the Scottish government always being able to point to Westminister for failure. I wish more world wide economists took time to write arguments for/against Scottish ind…

> sinking ship of the UK. what "sinking ship" and why this opinion?

You can read more in this HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31708519

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#369

Post by simonh »

SilverBirch wrote: post #128
carnitine wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

Excuse me, but literally today is the first day that the government starting flying asylum seekers to Rwanda[1], and yesterday they published legislation with the intention of breaking international law[2]. They've also recently curtailed rights to legal protest[3]. The Prime Minister has a history of law breaking including illegally shutting down our parliament[4]. This government only got their majority when UKIP c…

In the year to March around 3/4 of people seeking asylum in the UK were granted it. This is the same PM that granted foreign students 2 year work visas on graduation. Hardly the actions of a bunch of Nazis. The huff and puff about immigration is entirely superficial, because at heart the conservatives are a party of business and they know full well immigration benefits the country. Their stance on immigration is best seen as a law and order issue, with a veneer of pandering to Daily Mail readers.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#370

Post by nextstep »

Many people pointing out the impracticality of this because of the pound and the border issue if there were an independent Scotland. This would be a logistical nightmare, but the EU would likely welcome Scotland back into the union and support a strong border like what is happening in the Irish Sea.

But these hypotheticals are just bargaining chips the EU has to force the UK back into the customs union and single market. Who knows, maybe a decade from now there will be a unified Ireland, a free Scotland and the UK will have abolished the monarchy even! But even if these aren’t realistic goals, it still makes sense for Brussels to support these movements.

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