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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#291

Post by gambiting »

zarzavat wrote: post #203
eyko wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do you think the entire government of a state should change? Some would argue every 4-5 years makes it impossible to have politicians with long term thinking. Why not have elections once every generation?

If Scotland votes for independence should they hold a referendum every 4-5 years on rejoining the UK?

If enough people want it, then of course? Why is this even a question? It is a democratic country last time I checked, if the chosen government representing the people decides that a referendum is what the public want....it should be held regardless of how much time has elapsed.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#292

Post by Codesleuth »

mattlondon wrote: post #260

I am happy for them to become independent, but I thought that last time this was a "once in a generation" type thing not a "every few years until we get the result we want"? It strikes me as unfair to just do another referendum again so soon (I think it was in 2014, so like what 8 years?). I think perhaps if they get one on Scottish independence, perhaps we should have a reverse-brexit referendum vote!

> perhaps we should have a reverse-brexit referendum vote!

I can see it now... 51% in favour of rejoin, 49% against. Boris et al. reject on the grounds that it's too close, hilarity ensues.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#293

Post by the_gipsy »

dubeye wrote: post #206
physicsguy wrote: post #46

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…

I very much doubt many scottish voters will pay too much attention to the economics. Are constitutional referendums ever really about economics? Brexit certainly wasn't

The three pillars of secessions are ethnicity/culture, improvement of representation, and money.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#294

Post by ciphol »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #100
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with them. If people all over the world had the same right, I suppose a lot of the wars could be avoided. Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Selec…

I think the issue in Donetsk/Luhansk is actually the Russian army forcing them into Russia, against the wishes of most of the inhabitants [1]. BTW it's interesting you use the the Russian pronunciation "Lugansk" rather than the standard "Luhansk", it hints pretty strongly where your loyalties lie.

[1] https://blog.politics.ox.ac.uk/most-people-in-separatist-hel...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#295

Post by ricardobayes »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

That would be true if the circumstances are unchanged that lead the public to make that decision. It's ok to support 'Leave', there is no need to sugarcoat it.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#296

Post by scott_w »

forgingahead wrote: post #282
scott_w wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda. Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

"Illegal"? There is no right to settlement of anyone in any sovereign country of which they have no citizenship in. It's entirely dependent on the laws of that sovereign country, and those laws are (usually) in place because of the preferences of the voting constituents, ie, actual citizens of the sovereign nation. You are throwing around "far right" as a slur in this discussion and that doesn't address facts or the…

The policy addresses refugees which are covered under a number of UN conventions. Deporting them is illegal.

I’ve already explained why it’s far right policy but let me explain in simpler words:

Only black and brown people are sent to Rwanda under this scheme. White Ukrainians are not. That’s why it’s a far right scheme. One might even call it racist.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#297

Post by pojzon »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #184
pojzon wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is going to get introduced because nations like Hungary, led by oil oligarchs connected to Russia, want to fk over whole EU for their personal gain. You should work towards stronger union not weaken it.

I am not a Hungarian citizen, but I am grateful that Hungary often has enough courage to call nonsense a nonsense and use or threaten with their veto to bring a bit of sanity in the EU. Heck, I can say that Hungary voted more frequently in my interest than my government. The EU is frequently used to push some regulations in favour of big corps that would never pass in any of the national parliaments without a big fig…

Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ?

Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement.

When only you see a problem its often the case you are the problem not the other way around.

Ps. I say that as a Polish citizen.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#298

Post by rayiner »

smcl wrote: post #30
carnitine wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

Labour has come to be run by London elites that hate the values of the party’s working class base. In that climate, Tories simply need a pulse to win elections.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#299

Post by gnomewascool »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #100
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with them. If people all over the world had the same right, I suppose a lot of the wars could be avoided. Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Selec…

> Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine.

Apologies to everybody for continuing this huge tangent, but this is bizarre.

The Ukrainian army did not try to force Donetsk and Luhansk into Ukraine.

First, a linguistic quibble: they had been part of Ukraine from the moment of its independence (and in the independence referendum 80+% of the voters in the two regions had voted for independence), so they couldn't be forced "into" Ukraine.

Second, the conflict began when Russian and Russian-backed forces started an armed insurrection, so it's more the case that Russia tried to force them out of Ukraine, against their will.

I'm highly confident that if a free referendum had been held there in 2014, a majority of the population of the Donbas would have voted to stay in Ukraine. Obviously, we'll now never find out, due to Russia carrying out ethnic cleansing of the region (mass deportations and killings).

> I would even go as far as the community level. If a city in Scotland vote to stay in Britain, I would allow them to become independent of Scotland and stay. In the same ways as I would allow a city in Donetsk to stay in Ukraine if they want so.

This is a very interesting question, but it'd be very complicated to get right, since the support for independence of particular regions can be entangled. For instance, people in Aberdeen might support Scottish independence iff Edinburgh stays in Scotland; people in Edinburgh might support independence iff the border territories stay in Scotland etc. That is not to say that we shouldn't try, if possible.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#300

Post by tut-urut-utut »

mschuster91 wrote: post #255
tut-urut-utut wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with them. If people all over the world had the same right, I suppose a lot of the wars could be avoided. Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Selec…

> Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. > Freedom of association is the basic human right, and no majorisation should be allowed to happen. Never. Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to a…

> Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to associate with Russia is nothing more than a plain land grab, a sham election.

Without commenting your claims of supposed ethnic cleansing, I'd like to point out that such a referendum could've potentially been held before or after the Maidan coup in 2014. But since Ukraine regime decided to crush independence movement using their armed forces, people of Donbas had no other choice but to fight back and got help from whoever was willing to help them. Otherwise, this territory would be ethnically cleansed.

> In contrast, there has been no campaign in Catalonia or in Scotland to forcibly remove ethnic Spaniards/English people in order to stage a fraudulent vote.

I wish Spanish government reacted similar to British in case of Catalonia. Instead of helping to properly organize the referendum, they opted for using armed forces and criminalizing and arresting pro-independence supporters.

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