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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#221

Post by closewith »

rightbyte wrote: post #70
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I don't see why not. The whole leaving the EU thing is a reasonable cause for independence. In general I like smaller units of government too, and it's not as if they can't cooperate with the UK in areas where they agree. I do have a horse in this race as I have Scottish family who'd have more choices with an EU passport.

You don't have to join Schengen border cooperation.

All EU accession states are legally bound to join Schengen, with the exception of Ireland, which during the negotiations for the Treaty of Amsterdam received (along with the UK) an opt-out. No other nations have this opt-out.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#222

Post by iso1631 »

sideshowb wrote: post #107
physicsguy wrote: post #46

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…

Doesn't the fact that Scotland owns the oil fields answer the economic problem, at least while everyone still wants oil? (not rhetorical, I haven't seen the numbers & I presume that's what TFA and its sequels aim to address, among other things).

Since the 2014 referendum upto 2021, total oil revenue has been about £5b, that's £700m a year

Pre-covid, Scottish public spending was about £15b a year more than tax revenue.

I believe the SNP position is that historical revenues should be taken into account for historic debt, but Scotland still has to convince the world to lend it a hell of a lot of money every year to pay for those services, even if they took all the North Sea old revenue (which seems an odd thing for a government with Green backing to be relying on)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#223

Post by sofixa »

refurb wrote: post #168
Jochim wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also the Tory party of criminalising dissent, corruption, Russian influence, and offshoring refugees. The fact that homosexuality isn't as controversial as it once was doesn't preclude their authoritarian nature.

Are they pulling that “it’s zee Russians!” in the UK too? Seems to be a very popular bogeyman all over the Western world.

Considering the amount of dirty Russian money ( Londongrad), the fact that Russian spies tried to assasinate a former Russian spy, murdering British civilians by accident, and Russian support for Brexit...

It's not a boogeyman, it's part of the reality.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#224

Post by themoose8 »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #117
brigandish wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. It's just the same.

> If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. Yes, absolutely. Once Scotland is independent we absolutely should keep checking to see if everyone thinks it's a good idea. If the majority votes to rejoin the rest of the UK politically, we should do that.

It's not a revolving door decision. You can't vote-force your way into joining a separate country or political institution, e.g. Ukraine can't simply gain a majority vote to be part of the EU and it happens.

This is why it's seen as a once-in-a-generation vote. The impacts are so huge, revolutionary and so long-term, that it's not a conversation you want to have every 4-5 years until one year you chance your way to the preferred result.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#225

Post by mantas »

SilverBirch wrote: post #128
carnitine wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

Excuse me, but literally today is the first day that the government starting flying asylum seekers to Rwanda[1], and yesterday they published legislation with the intention of breaking international law[2]. They've also recently curtailed rights to legal protest[3]. The Prime Minister has a history of law breaking including illegally shutting down our parliament[4]. This government only got their majority when UKIP c…

Denmark's left-wing government is planning to send away asylum seekers too.

It's interesting times when protecting borders from illegal immigration is seen as „far right“. It's not „far right“ rising, it's some people pushing Overton window extremely to the left.

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/denmark-talks-with-rwan...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#226

Post by morelisp »

carnitine wrote: post #24
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

UKIP sentiment hasn't waned, they won. Until there's a serious movement to re-join the EU, the UKIP sentiment is the UK's sentiment.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#227

Post by kmlx »

bestinterest wrote: post #19

I voted no last time round as I was not convinced on the economic side of things. Truthfully I'm still not convinced but I'm finding it hard to justify staying on the sinking ship of the UK. I'd rather fail as a country by our own decisions rather than the Scottish government always being able to point to Westminister for failure. I wish more world wide economists took time to write arguments for/against Scottish ind…

> sinking ship of the UK.

what "sinking ship" and why this opinion?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#228

Post by ErikCorry »

Scottish independence is a bad idea for many of the same reasons that Brexit was a bad idea and Brexit has made Scottish independence into a much worse idea. Instead of being like the Czechoslovak break-up it would be more like the issues around the Northern Irish border.

Having a huge land border which is an EU/non-EU border with customs controls would be massive economic disruption on both sides of the border. The damage to people's jobs and lives would be huge. This border has been open since 1707 and people have based their lives and livelihoods around being able to cross it freely with goods and services. I can see the romantic appeal of an independent Scotland, but it would objectively be a disaster.

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