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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#171

Post by mhh__ »

orra wrote: post #27
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah? As you know, UK asylum policy is horrific at the moment. The UK is sending asylum seekers to Rwanda, copying Australia's repugnant offshore policy. I hope we (Scotland) do better. In 2014, the independence white paper had a points based immigration policy. I want a much more open immigration policy this time round. Scotland is enriched by migra…

It's the first time we've built a concentration camp for in a long time

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#172

Post by chrisseaton »

ggm wrote: post #134
chrisseaton wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t he dead? Hard to argue a dead person is strong!

Jimmy Maxton is dead as well: Red Clydeside long gone. There were scots Trotskyists, the rock climber Dougal Haston's family notably (he's dead too. I don't think he was political btw) The point being made here is Scotland has a socialist history and has had explicitly socialist candidates elected to parliament in recent history. Like.. 2003-2007. I'd hesitate to call it dead just yet.

> explicitly socialist candidates elected to parliament

I think it’s pretty unreasonable to call these people ‘far left’. I don’t think they’re planning to take up arms like the IRA for example.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#173

Post by 4dregress »

Erikun wrote: post #123
4dregress wrote: post #23

I don't see it happening, we've been through far too much in the last 10 years to inflict even more damage. I've asked this question many times but how is it feasible for Scotland to become Independent: 1. They currently don't meet the requirements to join the EU. Are they going to skip the current waiting list? 2. How will they create a military? 3. Still a big question mark over currency and Scotland's debt. 4. Own…

The biggest hurdle for Scotland joining the EU arent the requirements, they'd likely pass those without too much issues. The biggest hurdle is probably Spain who wouldn't want to give the Catalan independence movement a good example.

Spain has in the recent past said they would not veto Scotland joining the EU.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#174

Post by mnw21cam »

dale_glass wrote: post #59
brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

The reason for the "once in a generation" promise is that it is widely recognised that holding regular referenda on non-reversible decisions biases in favour of the non-reversible option.

Let's imagine for example that genuinely 55% of the population want to remain part of the UK, and so remaining should win given a completely fair and accurate measure of the population's mood. However, every measurement varies for a variety of reasons, for instance what outrageous things some random politician has said in the last few days. If we were to hold a referendum every year, then you'd be bound to hit a year at some point fairly quickly where the random variation pushes the result over the 50% leave threshold. This would trigger the non-reversible transition, and the referenda would stop happening.

There's a reasonably strong argument for this reason that non-reversible decisions should require a greater than 50% majority. That's why amendments to the US constitution require a 2/3 majority vote to pass.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#175

Post by orra »

c16 wrote: post #60
easytiger wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared with whom and on what criteria?

1. A PM who lies about attending a party, and runs with the lie until he is forced to admit it by a report and photographic evidence. 2. A PM who lied to the Queen. 3. Food poverty on the up [1] 5. £350m a week for NHS post Brexit, and yet that was a blatant lie. NHS now struggling with many staff quitting post covid and as a result of increased work load due to brexit. The list goes on. [1] British medical journal (…

All those. Plus, threatening peace and stability in Northern Ireland, first by pursuing a hard Brexit at all costs, and now by tearing up the Northern Ireland protocol.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#176

Post by ChildOfChaos »

cstross wrote: post #17
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

Yes but does it matter? How far do you break those stats down, it's just a matter of manipulating them to get whatever point you want.

Say you break it down to a single street which might have voted 90% remain, should that street then be declared independent?

There are always going to be areas that believe stronger in one idea or another but that doesn't mean those areas should be separate from each other, the whole point of Europe is the idea of being stronger together but then in which case why not keep Scotland part of the UK?

What really is scotlands issue, is not that they need indolence from the UK, they need a better UK government and plenty of people in England believe this also, independence is not required.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#177

Post by Danieru »

osullivj wrote: post #155
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

Northern Ireland is not a nation. Ireland is a nation with four provinces: Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connaught. Six of Ulster's nine counties are part of the UK, and the other three are part of the Repulblic of Ireland.

The Irish are a nation, a people with a unique language and identity. That is what OP is referring to. It the same definition of nation as in "nation state". Namely a nation state is a state with one dominant people. Germany, Japan, Thailand, Ireland, are nation states. US, UK, are by their nature not nation states.

So yes, North Ireland represents a nation seperate to the English, the Welsh, or the Scotts.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#178

Post by camjw »

krona wrote: post #169
cstross wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my point. UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron. The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

> The rest are all new faces with far right credentials What does that even mean? That anyone who wasn't a member of the SWP in their youth is automatically a closet fascist?

Ben Wallace probably gonna go home and have a silent cry if it he hears someone has been calling him "far right".

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#179

Post by martopix »

easytiger wrote: post #13
ivolimmen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutch and EU citizen I fully understand their motivation. I also regretted to see England leave the EU.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Not OP but can't wait.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#180

Post by smcl »

cyberpunk wrote: post #99
brigandish wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. It's just the same.

I voted against it as I didn't want to lose my EU membership; which we were told would happen. A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. A lot of my friends who were remain for various reasons seem to be leaning towards independence. 'We were told…

I think we'd continue with a proportional-representation system, so as-it-stands they'd sort of be running things but they'd need a coalition partner like they have in the Scottish Greens.
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