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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#31

Post by implements »

madeofpalk wrote: post #14
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

As a Brit, Scotland is part of Britain - and independence would be (in a sense) losing a part of a birthright (to live and work in Scotland).

But it’s always been a separate country, and people are sovereign over history so it’s their choice.

Would be nice if there was a Common Travel Area with the UK afterwards, though.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#32

Post by hardlianotion »

carnitine wrote: post #16
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

Don’t most anti-Brexit arguments have direct anti-independence analogues?

Neither Brexiters nor Scottish independence supporters like to be reminded of this.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#33

Post by Erikun »

It’s certainly hard to argue that Scotland shouldn’t be allowed to hold a referendum again. Usually I feel that the one they had a few years back should stand but with brexit the situation feels sufficiently changed that the old result feels dated. But at the same time, the lesson should be that a simple majority is not a sufficient result. Either a qualified majority of some sort, with minimum participation threshold, or maybe two referendums with a general election in between sounds about right.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#34

Post by hardlianotion »

bestinterest wrote: post #19

I voted no last time round as I was not convinced on the economic side of things. Truthfully I'm still not convinced but I'm finding it hard to justify staying on the sinking ship of the UK. I'd rather fail as a country by our own decisions rather than the Scottish government always being able to point to Westminister for failure. I wish more world wide economists took time to write arguments for/against Scottish ind…

Most economists worldwide have other priorities.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#36

Post by brigandish »

carnitine wrote: post #24
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

To lump UKIP in with the other two is absurd.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#37

Post by cstross »

carnitine wrote: post #16
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

Don’t most anti-Brexit arguments have direct anti-independence analogues?

Yes, with one key difference: the Brexit campaigners insisted that the UK was being tyrannized and forced to implement policies set in Brussels by the EU (despite having full political representation in making those policy decisions), whereas Scotland is ultimately under UK control -- large elements of public policy are reserved for Westminster, which means control by a succession of governments Scotland hasn't voted for since 1955.

(The first part of this is a side-effect of UK governments since the late 1980s blaming their own unpopular public policies on the EU, aided and abetted by certain elements of the British media who made bank by painting the EU as some kind of continental political supervillain bent on tormenting the UK, rather than a political process the UK had full participation in. One of those most prominent of those journalists being one Boris Johnson ...)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#38

Post by afavour »

carnitine wrote: post #24
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

I’d argue that deporting immigrants to Rwanda has a certain far right timbre.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#39

Post by samwillis »

carnitine wrote: post #24
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

I think in the context of today specifically with the Rwanda flight I would find it hard to agree with you.

True they aren’t all far right, but they do capitalise on decisive policies to invigorate their core supporters.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#40

Post by eyko »

afavour wrote: post #20
madeofpalk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

I believed that the UK is better off as a united country. Not all that different from the logic for the UK staying in the EU: larger economic markets help everyone. A union of likeminded nations is better then isolation. I also have both English and Scottish relatives (one reason I consider myself a “Brit”) so you could say the concept plays into my self image. > it was your position to have an opinion I suppose I co…

Scotland can be independent _and_ be in the same economic market (ignoring UK and Spain willing to veto Scotland reentering EU out of spite / own political motives).
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